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Opioids Not stabilized on Methadone yet?

JackBurton89

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
56
I started taking methadone 11 days ago. I went from 30 to 80, spending two days on 60 and 70. I have been on 80 mg for four days. I barely had a tolerance when I started. I got out of detox 30 days ago and used four times before I started, probably a total of two bundles. The first few days I actually got a buzz, I did take tagamet and DXM. I have stopped doing that because I don't wanna mess with my dose and since then, I don't even get a buzz I actually have moments when I feel like I am in withdrawal and by 8 am the following morning (24 hours) I feel like shit. Does it really take that long to get stabilized? I see my worker on Tuesday and may ask to dose up. I won't go above 100 mg that's my cut off, I don't wanna chase a high, I just want to feel better, and wouldn't mind a mood lift here and there. Thanks
 
I told myself I didn't want to go above 70-80mg when I started but here I am 4 months after starting and already take double that. I was tired of being in withdrawal after 14 or 15 hours and suffering till I could dose again. It talked extensively to the doctor about it and it had been a slow process and I still ain't 100% but at least I can sleep more then 3 hours now. I also realize that I will be on it long term this time and there is no need to be miserable on it. Everyone metabalizes it differently I say forget about a personal limmit and take what ever dose it takes to hold you otherwise you may start using to make yourself feel better.
 
You take "double" 70-80mg? So you're taking 150mg per day???

I'm sorry, but taking 150mg a day because your a "fast metabolizer" is bullshit. If your really trying to avoid WD symptoms, and IF you really are a fast metabolizer, you could simply split dose. A small (and I mean small) portion of patients will inevitably need BID dosing, clinics understand this and so offer split dosing for these patients. Note that even these patients don't need two full doses per day, but instead take most of they're dose in the morning, with a smaller, "booster dose" in the afternoon evening. So for example, a patient will take 60-80mg initially, with another 30-40mg 8-12 hours later.

But 150mg is fucking huge. You realize that 150mg chronic oral methadone is roughly equivalent to 450-600mg oral oxycodone? Except that oxycodone has a MUCH shorter duration of action, so you'd need over a gram of oxy per day to be comfortable.

Or around 200mg pharmaceutical grade diamorphine. For reference, typical street level heroin has a purity of 10-20%. So each gram of H contains 100-200mg actual diamorphine.(this isn't even taking into account the fact that it is never pure, and so also contains morphine, and trace amounts of other compounds. So 1-2 grams of street H, and again, you would need multiple doses per day, so we're talking nearly a 1000$ a day on dope.

And if you really are a fast metabolizer, then oxycodone/hydrocodone must be useless to you, as they are metabolized via the same pathways as methadone, but they're half-lives are exponentially shorter. So you we're taking, what, 5 doses a day??? And at 500mg a pop, well, damn, you we're doing 2000-3000mg of oxycodone per day? Wow man, no wonder you NEED 150mg of methadone...?

In all seriousness, I may make a chart later, for the hell of it, showing the equivalent doses of various opioids. I mean, what dose it would take to equal (roughly) 150mg chronic methadone.
 
Lorne??? Make the chart I am interested in seeing it. Welderman thanks for the response. I don't understand it, I had barely any tolerance going into the program and I still feel like shit. I get little nods but generally I still feel bad. I sweat a lot which I know is a side effect of the methadone but sometimes I get hot and cold like withdrawal and it just kills with all the sweating. I used to taking 0.9 mg of clonidine and day when I was doing dope and that helped me a lot when I was sick. I came off of it "cold turkey," after my doctor wouldn't refill it anymore because a shitty drug counselor said I was falling asleep in group. I asked the doctor for it to help me come off of dope and he gave me 0.1 two times a day and i took it for a few days and never used it but refilled it. So when I relapsed I had a bunch and ended up working my way up to .9 which is almost the max daily dose prescribed. The doctor gave me .3 two times a day. At first I was scared to get off of it because of rebound hypertension even though I wasn't prescribed it for blood pressure, but I got my energy back.
 
My clinic is open from 6-11 Mon-Fri and 7-11 Saturday and Sunday. I have never heard of double dosing. Would they give you a dose to take home? If so would it have to be when you have been there for a few months?

Is it still possible to have pinpoint pupils, constipation, water retention, and even get a little buzz for 20 mins and still feel sick a few hours later. It seems like I alternate between feeling ok and being sick.

Edit: When I first started, on 40, 50, 60 mg I took three tagamet an hour before my dose, then about 80 mg of DXM with doxylamine succinate, sometimes 100 mg of hydroxyzine, and even some antibiotic I heard potentiated methadone. On the 50 mg and 60 mg I nodded pretty hard for an hour or two. Then I realized I might be screwing up my stabilization and even more important, that I was chasing a high that I knew would go away and that was the opposite of my reason for going on Methadone.
 
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Most clinics offer split dosing I got mine to split my suboxone to 3 times a day and was able to go from the huge dose of 12mgs a day down to 6mgs just by splitting the dosing up like that.
Suboxone and methadone are pretty much the same things when it comes to regulations where I'm from so when I go to the pharmacy to pick up the days dose I take half in front of the pharmacist and take half home. To take some at lunch and at night before bed. Now I only go to the pharmacy to dose in front of a pharmacist once a week cause I have had clean urines which is great cause with suboxone you need to wait in front of the pharmacist so he can see your not taking the pill outta your mouth to shoot it up or whatever which is dumb makes us feel like we are in time out and if I was dumb enough to shoot a sublingual pill that was in my mouth covered in bacteria then I deserve to die
 
And don't let anyone tell you your taking too much I would suggest lowering it but I'm not gonna sit here and say you don't need that dose I mean lots of people have 500+mgs of oxycodone a day habits even if you don't then don't worry stick with what works then you can worry about lowering it to a more reasonable dose.
 
I know how I feel no one else is walking in my shoes. I'll stick with what works and go from there. There is so much negativity surrounding Mmt but I know what I'm getting into and have long term plans any one that don't like it can go fuck themselves. They don't have to like it it's not there life.
 
^^^exactly if you ask for advice or tell me your tired all the time or feeling shitty from your dose then I would reccomed lowering it but I'm not gonna tell them they have to if it works for them then fine if it doesn't and they don't want to change then fine. I'll give my 2cents if they don't listen then its all good no skin of my back as far as I'm concerned. For all I care they can go suck 300mls up outta their sippy cup with a livestock needle in front of the pharmacist and inject it all in one go lol whatever floats your boat its your life.
 
^^^exactly if you ask for advice or tell me your tired all the time or feeling shitty from your dose then I would reccomed lowering it but I'm not gonna tell them they have to if it works for them then fine if it doesn't and they don't want to change then fine. I'll give my 2cents if they don't listen then its all good no skin of my back as far as I'm concerned. For all I care they can go suck 300mls up outta their sippy cup with a livestock needle in front of the pharmacist and inject it all in one go lol whatever floats your boat its your life.
Lol @ sippy cup. You nailed it man I agree
 
I thought about it for a while and in my opinion either this guy needs split dosing or he is having mental not physical withdrawal symptoms feeling like he needs to redose which is something that a lot of matinence patients have to overcome
 
Just to clarify, I never said he was taking too much. Of course you didn't say I did, but just to be clear, I never said, or even implied that.

I was talking to Welderman. I wouldn't presume to tell someone they're dose without at least having all available info. But nor would I encourage them to just indiscriminately increase they're dose.

What irritated me is that the OP made it very clear that he already is/was getting a buzz from his dose. So clearly his first response shouldn't be "just up the dose". However, it is sounding like he may very well have to consider that. But first, he needs to attack this problem from every angle.

Clearly the dose must be high enough, and as I mentioned in the Methadone Megathread, for MMT particularly, the maintanence dose MUST BE HIGH, regardless of tolerance.

OP, if you have any sort of interest in pharmacology, or if you are a fast learner, check out the Methadone Mega Thread, and read my last post. Not only does it help explain the pharmacological profile of the high-dose methadone used in MMT, but it may be relevant to your particular problem, possibly explaining(partially) how you initially get a "buzz" from your dose, but then subsequently feel like shit.

Just a couple questions though:

1. Did you only get a buzz when taking the cimetidine? And if so, what dose of cimetidine were you taking?

2. Do you feel fine initially? And then later feel like shit? If so, what is the duration? 6hr? 12hr????

But please, DO NOT RAISE YOUR DOSE, not yet. YOU WILL REGRET IT. Believe me, when I was in MMT I my tolerance got insanely high, and it took years to fix it. Not to mention that the WD is simply unbearable from high dose methadone; not only is it worse than coming off of a street dope habit, but it never fucking ends. At least for me, it didn't. It would have been impossible to go cold turkey from that, I would have killed myself if I had to through weeks of that hell.

Of course, sone people don't have a choice; they're tolerance is so high that they have to take that risk.

But yours isn't. So don't irreversibly alter multiple brain systems fur the hell of it. They're is an explanation for your problem, and we shall find it.

And for everyone saying "who cares if your tolerance is low, take as much as you want", that is sorry advice. It takes several days for methadone to reach steady state, so at least wait for that before telling him to flood his brain with an extremely powerful, long lasting opioid. Also keep in mind that the bioavailability of methadone is generally high, but also highly variable, ranging anywhere from 40-90%.

In addition, methadone is extremely sensitive to PH. So much so that even the half-life is PH dependent. As crazy as it sounds, a modest increase in urine PH doubles methadone half-life. And increasing stomach PH will maximize the oral bioavailability, and in some cases makes the BA 1.5-2x higher.

Methadone metabolism is complex, and also fascinating, and they're are countless ways you can manipulate it. All are viable options to try, before upping the dose, when you admittedly have a low tolerance.

Not to sound Korny, but methadone saves lives. However it can occasionally do more harm than good, and rarely, it even destroys them. So unless they are fully educated about every aspect of methadone, and MMT in particular, people shouldn't be giving advice about it. I don't go consoling people at Gambler's Anonymous meetings, ya know....

Ummm he has been on it 11 days whats your problem you know nothing about the guy and your telling him all this about how his dose is so high then you insult me and tell me to stay out of it cause I don't know as much as you like wtf? I never said to take more than you need he is on a controlled dose under the watchful eye of the clinic. He said he feels it kick in and feels good then crashes he's not drooling or stumbling around 7/11 looking for some munchies all out of it by the sounds of it he just feels sick soon so he should try a split dose if he can't get relief for 20+hours from say 100mgs of done but keep in mind many of these clinics are reluctant to split doses and would rather the patient take a huge dose once a day.
Taking all these random things to potentiate it everyday is dumb im sure the clinic doesnt want that why not up it little more if your not comfy to be at the same plasma levels as you would be with a potentiater. I just hear a whole lot of judment coming from you I mean shit mabye the guy did an 8ball a day of heroin? I sold dope for a little Chinese guy who shot a whole gram of 80 percent pure China white 4-6 times a day i thought he was bullshiting till i seen him do a shot i could do a half G no problem of the same stuff but not a G that's how high he had his tolerance from always having kilos of dope on hand and getting mixed up with doing his own product all the time so its possible to have huge tolerance's is what I'm saying therefore needing huge doses or what seems like huge doses to people with low tolerances.
 
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^^^ Ok, I spoke too soon. After actually reading all of his posts, I know what his problem is. And before I go any further, I know I'll be flamed for this, but I don't care. It is the truth.

Lorne??? Make the chart I am interested in seeing it. Welderman thanks for the response. I don't understand it, I had barely any tolerance going into the program and I still feel like shit. I get little nods but generally I still feel bad. I sweat a lot which I know is a side effect of the methadone but sometimes I get hot and cold like withdrawal and it just kills with all the sweating. I used to taking 0.9 mg of clonidine and day when I was doing dope and that helped me a lot when I was sick. I came off of it "cold turkey," after my doctor wouldn't refill it anymore because a shitty drug counselor said I was falling asleep in group. I asked the doctor for it to help me come off of dope and he gave me 0.1 two times a day and i took it for a few days and never used it but refilled it. So when I relapsed I had a bunch and ended up working my way up to .9 which is almost the max daily dose prescribed. The doctor gave me .3 two times a day. At first I was scared to get off of it because of rebound hypertension even though I wasn't prescribed it for blood pressure, but I got my energy back.

His problem is that he shouldn't be on MMT. I'm not saying that he shouldn't be allowed to pursue ORT. But he SHOULD NOT BE ON MMT.

Methadone maintenance is for people that are so dependent on opioids, that they have to take large doses of opioids on a daily basis, simply to function. Not for people who have already kicked the physical dependence, but are struggling psychologically with addiction.

In your case OP, you should be on buprenorphine. That would be perfect you. The reason you feel bad, while also nodding, is because methadone itself is not euphoric, when taken every day. But it is damn powerful. That is why you are sweating, and nodding, AND tired. You we're expecting an easy score, a powerful long lasting opioid you could get legally, every day, and at a good price.

What you've gotten is a powerful drug, intended for people with a severe physical dependence, who need it to simply feel normal. And it isn't giving you what you wanted. Instead, you are flooding your body with with a powerful opioid it doesn't need.

Please, quit while you still can. You we're 30 days clean. I haven't went that long since the first time I tried an opioid nearly a decade ago. You relapsed, and after 4 doses, made the mistake of going into MMT. If you really need ORT, start taking suboxone, you will feel better, and it is much easier on your body/mind. Not to mention, that if you live in the states, you will get a monthly prescription almost immediately.

Please man, you are not even enjoying the methadone. Stop. Just stop. That's what suboxone is for.

At the very least reduce your dose, and/or split it, it will reduce the side effects, and keep your tolerance low, giving you options.
 
Ummm he has been on it 11 days what the hells your problem you know nothing about the guy and telling him all this crap then insult me and tell me to stay out of it cause I don't know as much as you like wtf? I never said to take more than you need he is on a controlled dose under the watchful eye of the clinic.
Taking all these random things to potentiate it everyday is dumb im sure the clinic doesnt want that why not up it little more if your not comfy to be at the same plasma levels as you would be with a potentiater. I just hear a whole lot of judment coming from you I mean shit mabye the guy did an 8ball a day of heroin? I sold dope for a little Chinese guy who shot a whole gram of 80 percent pure China white 4-6 times a day i thought he was bullshiting till i seen him do a shot i could do a half G no problem of the same stuff but not a G that's how high he had his tolerance from always having kilos of dope on hand and getting mixed up with doing his own product all the time so its possible to have huge tolerance's is what I'm saying therefore needing huge doses or what seems like huge doses to people with low tolerances.

Trainspotter, dude, calm down!!! You misunderstood me completely! That wasn't directed at you!!!! Only the first sentence, about how I wasn't telling the OP to reduce his dose!

It really wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but it was inspired by that Welder guy. I don't know, him just non-chalantly telling the OP to increase his dose, when he is already nodding off just really rubbed me the wrong way.

But it definently wasn't aimed at you, man, you should know that you are one if the posters I like, as you actually know what you are talking about!
 
Of course, I am telling him he should now. I hadn't read the OP's subsequent posts when I went on my rant. That's why ranting is never good, you often end up looking a fool, and then even cool people get pissed at you!

IDK, like I said, that one guy really got on my bad side.

Anyway, in light of my new(fully informed) view on the OP's "problem", I am going to edit that post.
 
My clinic don't like to do the split dose. When I get enough take homes I can do it myself then see how that goes and reduce as needed. I understand that it takes a few days after an increase to really know if it is helping or not. I didn't want to be on this high of a dose but it is what works for now. I appreciate the help and explanations of how it works.
 
Oh I read that gamblers anonymous thing and thought what the hell why say that I didn't mean anything bad when I said to do what works best for you and not what works for the person next to you simply because I believe everyone is different and metabolises thing differently. Now I'll admit I have said to a few people myself in the past who are on say 28mgs of bupe or sumthing for a 100mg hydrocodone addiction or a quarter gram a day street heroin habit that they should think about a lower dose also if someone asks the best way to keep a buzz on bupe I'll tell them to try low dose bupe in micrograms (when i say that I get a lot of WTF? No man I get higher on 16 than i do on 8 less isn't more lol some people just never get it) but if they want to stay I just leave it at that okay I gave my two cents that's it they are now informed and know that if they come off this amount of bupe they will need to take handfuls of pills every hour just to keep outta withdrawals and they know they are making their tolerance sky rocket.

Sorry for flipping shit on you Lorne I know you know your stuff but I thought you were being a straight up dick to all of us
 
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What's clear, is he needs to speak to his Dr. ASAP. Especially b/c the potential to use right now is increased due to his feeling shitty / dose not holding him. Sorry, not "him", I mean you, kind sir..jack burton ;)
The fact that you're getting a nod as you explain...means it is working/holding you at that dose. But something else is happening. And you could need to do a split dose(trainspotter filled me in on this one as I'm decreasing..down to 4mg..whoop!)
Are you taking other medications?
Are you taking vitamins?
Is this your first time on MMT?
Do you have any underlying health issues?
Some very simple things can greatly affect your dose.
I would see your prescriber asap, go over everything..
Please keep updated!
And be careful!!
 
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