Misc nonbenzodiazepine hypnotics - why they stop working after awhile?

[RazorBladeSlide]

Hi bluelighters

I have been diagnosed with severe insomnia due to chronic pain ( I overdosed on heroin on purpose to try and kill myself and ended up with rhabdomyolysis and kidney failure instead. The rhabdomyolysis caused all sorts of problems like ugly scars all over my body, neuropathy, myopathy, muscle atrophy in my left leg and foot. I will be in chronic pain for the rest of my life) I was prescribed ambien, ambien cr, and lunesta because the chronic pain caused severe sleep deprivation. The first few months I was taking nonbenzodiazepine hypnotics they worked and then they just stopped working. I even increased the dose to see if that would work but it didn't. I even tried quiting them for a week and then starting up again but that didn't really help either.

-How long do I have to wait between doses so that they start working again?

-Are the nonbenzodiazepine hypnotics not working because my pain might be cancelling out the sleeping effects of the drugs I am taking ?

-Is it normal for these type of drugs to just stop working after awhile, even if you increase the dose, or am I alone on this?

-How long did nonbenzodiazepine hypnotics work for you before they just stopped working?

Thanks.
Would appreciate you comments and such.
Cheers

( I just read on Wikipedia that lunesta works for 6 to 12 months for young adults, I'm 30 so I assume that means me , sorta , lol. So why isn't it working ? Like I said these nonbenzodiazepine hypnotics only worked for a few months for me, wtf?)

 

[Kratom bomb]

I have been taking ambien since I was twelve years old for insomnia, I am now 19, turning 20 in 5 days.
I have taken ambien cr and lunesta as well. Lunesta was the least effective one.
For about a year and a half I have been taking 30 mg a night. I have to admit that ambien does get less effective over time.
The best way to let it put you to sleep is to take it and lay down to sleep immediately so it kicks in while your eyes are closed.
Do not wait for it to kick in while you are awake and then try to sleep.
Also, ALWAYS take it on an empty stomach, this causes it to kick in in five minutes or less and be allot stronger. these instructions are on the bottle, in America at least.
Trust me on this, I have 8 years of experience.

 

[RazorBladeSlide]

Hey Kratom bomb,

Yeah I have been on ambien cr for about two months before it stopped working. I think it doesn't work because my pain is so bad a lot of the time that the effects of the drugs are cancelled out by it, it bloody sucks because it seems to work long term for your average non-chronic pain person.

 

[SpunkySkunk347]

That really sucks I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Its strange, for me I always got the same level of effects from zolpidem (Ambien). But then again, i wasn't using them for sleep, I was using them to trip and get high. I also didn't use them every day; although sometimes I'd use them for a few days in a row multiple times a day, but eventually get sick of them and stop for a while.

Depending on what sort of effects I wanted, i would either take 10mg for a very mild but enjoyable trip with minimal amnesia; 20mg for a stronger trip with moderate amnesia; and 30mg for a blackout out-of-control trip (only with a trusted friend watching me though of course).
If I had the round instant release, I would crush and snort 10mg which seemed to give much more intense effects and a little bit of a rush.

What dose are you taking? Maybe try crushing and snorting.
Are you still getting the effects from zolpidem but just aren't able to sleep on them anymore?

 

[Kratom bomb]

@RazorBladeSlide,
You should ask your doctor for a supplemental pain medicine to help you. Do you live in the U.K.? I live in the U.S.A. and here they are really hesitant to prescribe opiates and other addictive substances. It really sucks.
Is it like that where you live?

Here in America they only like to prescribe pain medication for very acute pain, for chronic pain they are total ass-holes unless you are like 30 or older. I mean I've still had hundreds of vicodin prescribed to me in my life but I have had multiple injuries. I think they are more generous in other states such as;Florida/california, but in Minnesota they are sticklers.

 

[tricomb]

It's kind of misleading to call them nonbenzodiazepines, since they basically try to mimic benzodiazepines in every way possible, working on the same receptors and all.

The reason they stop working is the same reason benzodiazepines stop working. Tolerance. These Z-drugs were marketed under the false pretenses that they were less habit forming/addictive than benzodiazepines.

IMO Z-drugs are something we'd all do better without. Definitely don't listen to the "crush and snort" advice, that's plain and simple dumb for therapeutic use. Be suspicious when people tell you to snort your medications.

Z-drugs were not designed to be taken long-term, neither were benzodiazepines. The real question is, why do people expect these drugs to work long-term? All the information we have on these medications (which isn't much) indicates that you can't take these medications daily long-term and have them remain effective.

If you're relying on one of these every night, you're really just shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Kratom bomb]

It is really rare that they work long term, but for some they do, myself for example. Going on 8 years.
I agree that you shouldn't crush and snort as well. Ambien doesn't work as well that way either.
I'll repeat myself and say an empty stomach is CRUCIAL.
Oral administration is much more effective with hypnotics anyway.

You also need to police yourself, if you enjoy the feeling it's less likely to help you fall asleep.
Do ask your doctor about supplemental pain medication though, it sounds like that might be where your problem resides... with pain.
To me, 2 months of effective treatment seems too short. IME the stuff should still be putting you to sleep.

May I ask what kind of pain you have?

 

[Kratom bomb]

I also think it's misleading to call them non-benzodiazepines, they have an almost identical effect in the brain, except more localized. It's almost an analogue.
It's ridiculous to me that my psychiatrist will prescribe me 30 mg per night of zolpidem tartrate, but completely refuses to prescribe me with any benzodiazepines.
She seems to think that there is too much risk of addiction with benzos, which is true, but I don't think that zolpidem tartrate is any better.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a shot in the foot, I myself benefit. All people are different though.

 

[RazorBladeSlide]

SpunkySkunk347 : l'm on 3 mgs of lunesta at the moment but I have taken higher doses but they still do not work. I also have a bottle of about 15 ambient cr left over as well. I was on 12.5 mgs of that but have taken higher doses of it as well eventhough I know I'm not supposed to but having severe insomnia is debilitating and I can't take it any more.

Tricomb : because they work on basically the same receptors does this mean withdrawal is a possibility for long term users? Thanks for your informative response btw.

Kratom bomb : I have neuropathic pain that is pretty severe in my left leg and foot. I also have some soft tissue damage, muscle atrophy and myopathy in my leg and foot as well. So trying to kill myself I ended up with more problems then I started with...sucks so much!!! At first I just had mental and emotional problems like depression, panic disorder and body dysmorphic disorder but now I have chronic pain on top of it all. My life is pretty tough. I'm from the US as well, Connecticut. They are real sticklers here as well, maybe worse. The DEA is really cracking down on doctors , even pain specialists. I was given dilauded in the hospital but since I was a drug user they wouldn't send me home with pain killers only f#cking 800 mgs of motrin which did absolutely nothing for my pain. Then they started my on gabapentin which also did nothing at all for my pain. Then I was given 50 mgs of tramadol which also did little for my pain plus I felt like I was going to have a seizure or something on that crap. I don't know what tramadol is really made of but it made me feel mental, just does not agree with me. Because I was a drug user I'm having an impossible time getting pain killers from doctors because they just assume I'm going to abuse them, well f*ck them because even ex-drug users with chronic pain still need treatment right? Its totally unethical those bastards. In fact the pain is so bad and I'm not getting pain treatment that I'm thinking of killing myself again and not messing it up this time around. I can't work, finish college, can't go out with friends, I can't do anything because of my pain. So if I'm not going to get help for my severe pain why live a life like this where I can't do anything , right?

 

[cook]

She seems to think that there is too much risk of addiction with benzos, which is true, but I don't think that zolpidem tartrate is any better.

You're partially right, it is not any better but worse. And your zolpidem dose is way too high. Find another doc.

 

[Kratom bomb]

I don't think that you should kill yourself, I've been to the bottom of the barrel as well and felt that way. I think that if you keep trying to find pain medicine you will eventually find a doctor who understands and has compassion. It may be uncomfortable, but honestly if you tell them what you just told me you might get somewhere with them.
I have one solution that might help you, it's called kratom, (mitrigyna speciosa) and it works in the brain the same way that opiates do. This plant is legal to buy, and because it isn't a morphine molecule, and isn't derived from a morphine molecule, it is legal. I use it all the time, you can get as high as you want on this stuff. I know that isn't your focus, but my point is that it works. There are many threads about kratom here on blue light and most people will tell you how miraculous it is. Keep trying man, if doctors aren't helping you you're doing the right thing coming here and asking others for advice. Don't give up, hopefully never, but not yet. Kratom REALLY works. It mimics other opiates/opioids exactly, and is great for pain relief. <no price discussion, sorry>

 

[Kratom bomb]

It isn't too high actually, and I love my psychiatrist. I need that high of a dose, it didn't happen all at once either. My dose was gradually increased throughout 8 years, as tolerance increased and also my weight.

 

[Znegative]

The withdrawal can be severe from Z-Drugs as they are very similar to benzodiazepine's. I've known people who have had seizures from stopping zolpidem abruptly, so I wouldn't really do that. My advice would be to switch to a long acting benzodiazepine like Valium (diazepam) or clonazepam, and to taper off with those. Yuo obviously would not want to start with with dosages that are too high (.5mg of clonazepam is approximately equal to 20mg of zolpidem, or 1mg of lorazepam).

Tramadol can cause seizures btw at dosages over 400mg (or, I'm pretty sure that's the standard max/dose per day). I wouldn't take anything like that if I was having trouble with benzo's or Z-drugs, so it's good you're not using those. Why not ask for BuTrans patches or subutex?

 

[cook]

I have one solution that might help you, it's called kratom, (mitrigyna speciosa) and it works in the brain the same way that opiates do. This plant is legal to buy, and because it isn't a morphine molecule, and isn't derived from a morphine molecule, it is legal. I use it all the time, you can get as high as you want on this stuff. I know that isn't your focus, but my point is that it works. There are many threads about kratom here on blue light and most people will tell you how miraculous it is. Keep trying man, if doctors aren't helping you you're doing the right thing coming here and asking others for advice. Don't give up, hopefully never, but not yet. Kratom REALLY works. It mimics other opiates/opioids exactly, and is great for pain relief. I get 4 oz. at 40 $ , Shipping and tax included in that number.

Why to use kratom for pain which is not studied and fully understood (safety concerns)? Of course if you can't get a script for an opioid then it is an alternative, but I would look for real opioids first.

 

[Kratom bomb]

I gave him that bit of advice as well as the kratom suggestion. I said he should first tell his doctor what he told me, and then might get somewhere. Read the whole post.
Have you yourself taken kratom Cook?
And sorry about posting a price Znegative.
I'm a man of scientific belief, but I don't think that Mitragyna speciosa being understudied by the FDA is reason enough not to try if all else has failed.
I do agree with Cook that you should make a last stand and try to make the doctors understand so they will prescribe you with appropriate medication.
Kratom works though and has been used in Asia for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Please don't anybody respond to me with negativity or malice, I'm simply trying to make my contribution and 0% of my information has been false.

The only known safety concern with kratom is possible nausea, which any other opioid/opiate carries as well.

 

[cook]

Yes I have used kratom and found the effects exactly same as opioids. But I have no trust what so ever over the long term (or short term) safety of kratom, this is why I dropped it and use regular opioids instead. Addiction potential seems to be the same too.

 

[Kratom bomb]

I don't crave kratom the way I will crave pharma opiates the next day, that might just be my body though.
I agree the effects are exactly the same.
I wish it would be studied by the FDA, and I do not. I'm afraid that if it is, it will be scheduled. If it isn't studied, then no one can definitively say it's safe.

I personally feel it's safe, it's been very compatible with my body. You never know though.

 

[cook]

My main concern of kratom is the liver function. A study described kratom addicts as thin and dark skinned (in Thailand if I recall correctly). The change of skin color might relate to liver function. Sorry about off-topic.

 

[Kratom bomb]

That dark skin thing was said to be false later on though. The only people they studied were laborers who were extra tan and skinny from working in the sunlight. There have been no indications of skin darkening since then. It has been written off as false.

Someone should make it their thesis to study this plant.

 

[RazorBladeSlide]

I would like to thank everyone for your responses, especially Kratom bomb for introducing me to mitragyna speciosa for managing my horrible chronic pain. I'm also going to ask my doctor if we can try subutex and if it doesn't work we go higher up the opioid latter like codeine, then vicoden, then percocet and so on until my pain gets under enough control again so I can live my life again and do all the things I used to do.

Thanks again everyone

PS I'm convinced my Z Drugs aren't working because my pain cancels out their sleeping, hypnotic effects.