So, I've been browsing sites, wikipedia, YouTube etc and I've come accross a lot of new MDMA derivatives which are apparently non-neurotoxic, MDAI in particular. Even dear old Molly is slightly neurotoxic, and we all know how relatively harmless that is. So what are the dangers of using MDAI? Apart from not knowing dosage, long term harm etc??
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N&PD Moderators: Skorpio
Non-neurotoxic phenethylamines?
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fryingsquirrel
Bluelighter
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Problem with MDAI doesn't seem to be related to danger of any kind, other than the fact many vendors don't have any idea what's in their shit. It just doesn't do much.
atara
Bluelighter
Well, neurotoxicity is only one very small -- and typically irrelevant -- part of the pharmacological profile of MDMA. The major risks from MDMA are hyperthermia, overexertion, anorexia, and, to some extent, tachyphylaxis/"loss of magic".
The first three of these are mostly nonexistent with MDAI, as it lacks dopaminergic/adrenergic properties. At very high doses it would be expected to produce hyperthermia, as do the selective serotonin releaser / MAOIs PMA and 4-MTA. "Losing the magic" is not unique to MDMA, and in fact is seen with almost any psychedelic following chronic dosing on the level of more than once a week. I'd expect it to happen with MDAI as well, but it's not interesting enough for someone to take it every day, to begin with.I think hyperthermia is not really a direct result, although it might happen spontaneously at higher doses. Changes to your serotonergic system can disturb your 'thermostat' so that you don't cool down enough. So... the point is your body cannot regulate it well enough anymore.
Just a subtle difference but I think that is the case. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
I think it means that you wouldn't have to worry too much about overheating from only taking a serotonergic drug but basically everything you do - just being alive - generates heat. The more heat you produce and the less you do about it i.e. cooling off the bigger your chance of hyperthermia. So worry about the combination.
So how much you move (dance etc) or how much you get heated up like in a sauna matters, how well you keep it in check by cooling off in time, AND the specific serotonergic drug and dose are the factors.
I do think that the neurotoxicity of MDMA is definitely correlated with hyperthermia i.e. there is probably a lot more damage if you don't cool off after taking a signicifant dose and after getting worked up.
If there are (as good as) non-neurotoxic phenethylamine alternatives then the serotonin release may get your body thermostat out of whack but if there is little to no toxicity from free radicals and other weird reactions from the drug or metabolites then overheating a little wouldn't exacerbate what doesn't happen to begin with right?
Of course hyperthermia can be dangerous in it's own right and beyond a certain point it really doesn't matter too much what the cause is but you can get serious damage or die.Hmm or something altogether:
check here
http://www.mdma.net/hyperthermia/mechanisms.html
here though, it's associated again with 'vigorous physical activity such as dancing'
http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=j1824276l6k29620&size=largest
yet, adrenoceptors (adrenergic receptors) also may have something to do with it
http://www.knockoutscience.com/showabstract.php?pmid=16025144
MDMA may initially induce hypothermia, very interesting when we consider the shivers one might get from such drugs in the very first stage of effects!
In the following, "The cause of hyperthermia (MDMA; MDA) could not be determined."
http://www.aapsj.org/abstracts/AM_2005/Staged/aaps2005-000515.PDF
I hate to say it but hyperthermia is not the main topic here. Either I am missing something or cases of hyperthermia are very complex and while I may be wrong about the thermostat theory (I really thought hypothalamic activity was affected for some reason I guess??) it still seems to be a multi variable equation.
So getting back to the actual direct neurotoxicity of phenethylamine stimulants that may be used as MDMA substitutes (whether they hardly live up to expectation like pure serotonin releasers or otherwise), hyperthermia is not a primary concern although it may be a risk for many other recreational drugs. Including amphetamines that focus much more on the dopaminergic system (and NE I think right?).
Something to consider is that MDAI reports are not really that glowing, but some combinations with dopaminergic releasers or reuptake inhibitors have been said to be worthwhile.
Looking at both possible causes for hyperthermia as well as general neurotoxicity such combinations might not prove to be such a good alternative for MDMA other than legality. On the other hand, it's always a good thing if you take something that doesn't rape your SERT like MDMA does, but it might cost you some feelings of magic.
With the limited information I have seen it has always sounded like a tradeoff, you don't easily get something for nothing. But now and then you hear about non-neurotoxic compounds that substituted for MDMA... everyone is welcome to mention one that has been bioassayed and actually proved worthwhile.
Then we have a good example and we can try to investigate if it really does have to positives of MDMA (or many of them) without most of the negatives.Last edited:I bet it is, also a good example of a combination with a pretty dopaminergic drug (M1) to account for a nice mix of serotonin and dopamine release. More or less making up what each of the drugs is lacking compared to MDMA.
It's like trying to get the pieces of the MDMA puzzle, but leaving the most neurotoxic aspects out (but what were they again? I thought radical formation and some kind of fucking up the SERT - by reversing its action).
I remember something about MDAI + methylphenidate, wasn't that better?
What about MDAI + d-amphetamine (hm doubt it).
There is a lot of this kind of discussion in the MDAI thread.
