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Non-existence is impossible?

Flickering

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There is no such thing as nothing.

This comes from a recent LSD trip. I came to the conclusion at one point that non-existence, the total cessation of experience at the moment of death, is not possible. Not being on LSD right now, I'm having trouble remembering exactly what analytical pattern led me to that. Something along the lines of: I exist now; I cannot experience non-existence; my universe is formed from the fabric of what I can experience, so I've always existed (in some form) and I always will. Non-existence is outside the frame of 'always' because it is atemporal, thus it never happens. However, this line of thought struck me as some fallacy or another, so I tried to imagine being nothing, and failed.

Normally I wouldn't bother to post such a thought, but a lot of people here have tried psychedelics, so I thought perhaps you've arrived at similar conclusions, or have some thoughts on it.
 
i thought lots of silly things on acid. One time i thought steve martin was a series of people playing the part of the real life actor/comedian.

anyway, in the event of a non-existence of I, the I is no longer apparent. SO you can't appeal simply to "I cannot be nothing", as that reasoning is invalid. Of course you can't experience non-existence, it doesn't follow that your experience can't cease.
 
We can never experience non-existence, because we can't experience what doesn't exist...it would be a contradiction if we could. How could we experience something that doesn't exist?

But outside our reality, could it still exist? But in that case, for something to be non-existent, what would that make it in the first place? Imaginary? Theoretical? If it doesn't exist, what exactly are we talking about? An idea?

It's truly amazing how LSD makes us think of these things. Truly amazing.
 
I don't believe that "nothing" actually exists as well. It's just a concept our mind creates. There is no such physical thing as "nothing" but that is besides the point here.

What constitutes non-existence? It's something you can never think of.

Even if you think of a pink elephant holding up the Earth, does that still exist? Well it still exists as a thought.

Non-existence to me is the concept of something never being thought of in any way and doesn't have any physical form at all. It's something that can't be described. It's everything outside of what is.
 
Psychedelics have delivered my consciousness to a place where nothing existed except my consciousness, does this qualify as nothing ?

I would say no, because you're consciousness was there. As stated above, nothing doesn't exist to our brains. We can't comprehend it. Just try to. I know I can't, I inevitably put something to the idea.
 
my kneejerk reaction to the statement 'non-existence is impossible' is 'therefore everything exists,' if we exclude logically inconsistent things from 'everything,' thats a justifiable conclusion.

i think non-existence does in a sense exist- as the void, or zero in mathematics. they are historically hard concepts to swallow (check out the void by frank close,or zero:the biography of a dangerous idea by charles seife), in part because its hard to work out what non existence might actually be.

this is a difficult debate and its easy to make categorical errors. for example the absence of something that once was present could be interpreted as non-existence, and certainly does exist as it can be causal, drug withdrawal for instance.
 
a shadow, or darknesss is not a thing in and of itself, but a reduction or absence of light. close your eyes. what do you see?
 
He doesn't see any reflection of something, but we can't say he experiences nothing.
My point is analogous as a phenomena being an absence of something else.

If we do, how do the blind make approximations of external reality without the help of light or with an impaired faculty of seeing? If a man's eyes are gouged out, does existence immediately falls flat for him? How can you even speak of an absence of sight, without knowing what sight is beforehand?
There's a little more to the universe than light. This statement of yours is silly and pointless.

Darkness is but the non-being of Light (of Reflection).
yeah that's what i said.
 
There is no such thing as nothing.

nothing mean no-thing so if you say there is no such thing as no such thing you create a double negative, which means you are actually saying that there is something called nothing and its no-thing
nothing IS nothing
get it ? its a abstraction of something
just like a donut hole, can you see the donut hole ? or is a donut hole actually nothing ? but then you know what a donut hole is and it is something, its a idea, a abstraction
if i say ive got a donut hole in my hand im not making sense even tho my hand is empty and a donut hole is empty you need the donut to have the hole, you need something to create nothing, and nothing (the hole) to create something (the idea of the donut hole)
to me thats how the human experience works

I cannot experience non-existence;

non-existence = non-experience, so being unable to experience non-existence would again give it validity

I tried to imagine being nothing, and failed.

its pretty simple to imagine being nothing: go to sleep

the total cessation of experience at the moment of death, is not possible.

i experience total cessation of experience on a daily basis when i sleep
if you, your mind, your consciousness, your soul or whatever you may call it cant stay awake while your body goes to sleep then why would death be any different ? seems like if you cant defeat sleep you sure could not defeat death
what if you die during your sleep ? why would you suddenly wake up ? your body wakes your mind up in the morning but if your body goes away what is there to wake you up ?
and if you believe in some kind of life after death do you think that your "soul" goes to sleep when its "tired" ?



and in relation to your trip and the non cessation of existence i would say that from my own lsd experience and what ive read is that the trip connects you with it all, its a usual thing in those trips to connect with the universe and realize that we are all one and that kind of stuff where you leave your ego behind, you leave your body behind, you leave your preconception behind... until you aint really you anymore you are the you-niverse and at that point sure you always have being there and you always will be there, and there is no such thing as nothing except that there is because you isnt there anymore, its the universe itself, and that aint you even tho it is, it aint you on your ego level, on your body level, on your everyday life level, if you die and go back there then by the time you get there you aint you anymore, you loose yourself, you forget yourself, because there is no more you in you,
but we are in symbiosis with the universe, and it doesnt matter if you die, but you do die imo
 
Non-existence is not the same as Nothing. For non-existence brings with it the notion of existence, and therefore the possibility of it becoming a determinate existence (determinate being) that is recognized by man. "Nothing" is pure indeterminateness (without space, time, dimensions), which is distinct from "Being", which is also a pure indeterminateness, for without such distinctions, we would not have a notion of Becoming. The entire notion of Becoming is based on the fact that Being vanishes into its opposite (Nothing) and vice-versa immediately (in a logical sense) creating our ability to describe experiences as "reality" or its "negation". For if there was stability in reality, there would be no "nothing", but change implies the opposite must be logically true.

One cannot imagine "being nothing", for even the fact of attempting to imagine betrays the task, since it is a determinate being (man) that thinks of being (existence); so when he speaks of "being nothing", he speaks of the negation of his view of reality that shapes his notion of what it is to be. Thats what psychedelics usually do (at least on 2c-e), showing a true negation of reality and in doing so, bringing forth becoming (Showing us that our notions of what it is to be is more dependent on factors that we do not take account of, like neurochemistry, epigenetics, the "non-being" of those who didn't consider it before) and through becoming, what one is (like what my screen name-sake said "Become who you are).

Non-existence is possible, and is even a trivial term to explain what you're trying to get at (since it already has "existence" as its potential, of course its possible".). The question is rather is "Nothing" possible? Heidegger once stated that the only way that "Something" can come out of "Nothing" is for "Nothing" itself to have always subsisted, being vanished into "Being", (our senses, our neurochemistry...a crude approximation, but it avoids me to go into abstractions), immediately, in a way that is only noticeable in a flash.

I can imagine "conscious" non-existence, it's called being dead. As far as I see this argument it's the similar to people who think that 2 dimensional beings would see this

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they don't and couldn't because that gives them a third dimension but there are however people who can conceptualize this. Same goes for conceptualizing void it's just nothing. 0
 
Non-existence is an absurdity, arising from the limitations of intellectual reasoning and relative human mind that likes to think in terms of opposites. The most fundamental thing in reality is awareness. There is nothing outside of it. It is "existence". There isn't non-awareness.. it is an impossibility.

Trying to answer these questions with language is a fools game and it is why philosophy in the 21st century sucks balls. Real philosophy does not arise out of word games and intellectual masturbation, it comes from direct experience that can only be achieved through the vehicle of your own body/mind. ps: Trying to arrive at great revelations through psychedelics is also a fools game.. once you realize how relative the human mind is adding another layer of confusion to the mix is, well, foolish.
 
its pretty simple to imagine being nothing: go to sleep

There is brain activity in sleep, obviously while dreaming, but also in other stages, that seems to indicate some very dim level of consciousness - without memory or thought, perhaps, but the processes from which consciousness emerges are still underway. But I'm being pedantic. General anaesthetic might be a better example, though even then the brain continues to zap signals to the other organs and keeps the body alive. Anyway, let's go with anaesthetia as the comparison, because it's the closest thing we have to death.

When you're anaesthetised, you don't experience. Therefore from your own perspective, it doesn't happen. You can't experience nothing, so you don't. 'Nothing' is impossible.

It would be like a great swathe of non-existence appearing in the middle of our spacial universe. It can't happen. It just doesn't work.

Or, travelling beyond the borders of the universe into non-existence. Also can't happen because by definition, it isn't there.

The same is the case for qualia, inner experience. By definition, we cannot in our realities experience non-experience, so we don't. To us, anaesthesia never happens, and death never happens.

I do feel like I'm tripping over my own (il)logic here, not sure what I'm trying to prove. Perhaps everything I just said actually disproves the primacy of consciousness, which kind of throws a spanner into all my philosophical musings for the past two or three years.

Anyway, life after death is a whole other matter. We could go into near-death experiences, and hypothesise that they result from the pineal gland excreting dimethyltryptamine into the brain, but all these things are rather tentative and I don't think any of us will ever know until we get there, unless there is no 'there' in which case we'll never know. However, life after death seems distinctly possible to me. All it requires is another form of body to carry on the memories of an earthly life. The question is, what sort of mechanism would that be, and why does it care about human (or other) existence enough to preserve it? I don't have any strong reason to believe it, but it could be true. Still, it all seems beside the point of this (double negative?) I've constructed.

One thing I can't get my head around is that, at the bottom of it, your hole in the donut is all there is. Every particle in existence is formed of an energetic web in the void between other particles, and that energy is itself just an expression of probability on a quantum level. In a temporal and experiential sense, read this. The first paragraph is all about the continuous flow of non-existence:

By the time you finish reading this sentence, you will have ceased to exist. In the time it took me to write it, I stopped existing too. I then used the experience to remind me just how little we have to fear from dying.

... from which we nonetheless continue to exist in this temporal, spacial reality.

Finally, during that LSD trip, there was a point where I felt like an incredibly sharp aether blade was piercing my heart. Everything about it felt so familiar - the fading of consciousness, the blackness all around, the creeping sensation of death, the squeezing of muscles getting deeper and deeper. Why was it so familiar? Perhaps, I thought, this was how I died in a past life, and this is a leftover memory of the traumatic event. But I've long rejected reincarnation because physical causality trumps it. However, if all we are is the universe perceiving itself through a neurochemical vessel, and those memories are indeed preserved beyond the death of the body, then perhaps some element of them can be distributed to multiple new vessels, or multiple vessels can compact into one. So, perhaps I am living the lives of a thousand others who died before I was born, and when I die, my experiences will be distributed to thousands more.

To me, this solves the dilemma of non-existence. I may not consciously remember 'my' past lives, yet my experience never ends, because ultimately I am the entire universe, connected to everyone and everything else, yet living out a consistent strain of memory over a span of many lifetimes, eventually to reunite with the other, more alien conduits of the consciousness matrix. However, I don't have any strong reason to believe this either.

Yes I know. I'm insane.

Non-existence is an absurdity, arising from the limitations of intellectual reasoning and relative human mind that likes to think in terms of opposites. The most fundamental thing in reality is awareness. There is nothing outside of it. It is "existence". There isn't non-awareness.. it is an impossibility.

Trying to answer these questions with language is a fools game and it is why philosophy in the 21st century sucks balls. Real philosophy does not arise out of word games and intellectual masturbation, it comes from direct experience that can only be achieved through the vehicle of your own body/mind. ps: Trying to arrive at great revelations through psychedelics is also a fools game.. once you realize how relative the human mind is adding another layer of confusion to the mix is, well, foolish.

I like this. Still going to use psychedelics to explore qualia, though. It's too much damn fun to stop!
 
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Non-existence is like the colour black. The true definition of black is an absence of light. As such, nobody has ever really seen 'black'. We see black every day, we can picture it in our heads, but this is merely a representation of what we typically perceive as black, not absolute 'black' by definition.

In that same way we can speculate and dwell on our perception of non-existence, but not non-existence itself. Since we cannot genuinely comprehend non-existence, we are merely speculating about a representation & an example of non-existence. As such I don't think we can really hope achieve anything through this.


It's like in Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, when the true meaning of life cannot be found because nobody can comprehend the question.
 
Real philosophy does not arise out of word games and intellectual masturbation, it comes from direct experience that can only be achieved through the vehicle of your own body/mind.

What is this real philosophy you write about, and how is it transposed without language? Is it communicated through telepathic pictograms (which could still be read through semiotics)? Considering that language is necessary for human communication, is it not logical to interrogate the relationship between being and language?


ps: Trying to arrive at great revelations through psychedelics is also a fools game.. once you realize how relative the human mind is adding another layer of confusion to the mix is, well, foolish.

The human mind being relative to what?

What if one's purpose is to use the trance state induced by some psychedelics as a point of departure from the psycho-sociolinguistic reality in which we find ourselves, with the direct aim of experiencing, or being aware, of psycho-spacial-realities that occur outside our usual data-set of referents without the desire for any "great revelation"?
 
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I dont think in words when I'm tripping. I see sacred geometries (which I found out about AFTER i saw them) and images that have deep meanings.
 
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