Advice Non-binary sociologist from UC Riverside calls for the abolition of terms "gay" and "lesbian".

[mal3volent]

Scholar makes case for moving beyond sexual labels

In a new book, sociologist Brandon Andrew Robinson calls for abolishing sexual identities. Robinson, an associate professor of gender and sexuality studies at UC Riverside, knows it’s a provocative thesis.

news.ucr.edu

You argue for abolishing sexual identities. Why get rid of labels like gay or lesbian when many people have found them useful for understanding themselves and finding a sense of belonging?

Robinson: It’s a several-fold argument. First, I want people to question why we privilege gender and genitals above all other attributes — like height or race — when we conceptualize our sexual identity.

Secondly, these categories often rely on gender essentialism. If being “gay” means being a man attracted to men, it assumes “man” is a stable, inherent category, when history shows the definition of manhood is constantly changing. Gender essentialism also harms trans people, who often complicate those binary boundaries.

But if you get rid of these labels, don’t you risk dismantling the communities that have formed under their rubrics and, by extension, the political protections that marginalized people have fought for decades to gain?

Robinson: I think the risk is worth it. While those communities are important, moving beyond those labels allows us to see people more accurately. It leads to a more complex — and more biologically accurate — understanding of ourselves as human beings. It allows us to explore our desires beyond labels that often confine and constrain us. And it allows us to explore our desires beyond shame that often comes with many labels as well.

I remember years ago when I first started subscribing to the idea that gender ideology was just the next evolution of sexism and homophobia, even the most radicalized individuals wouldn't have actually been brave enough to just come out and say these things openly. But it was pretty obvious this is where it was headed from the beginning.

My last thread regarding the concept of gender and what it actually means got sidetracked into political posturing but my aim was to try to understand if there was a utility behind the word. Unfortunately I think the utility is becoming more and more obvious.

By blurring the lines between sex and gender, if such ideas ever actually achieved widespread acceptance, these ivory tower intellectuals will have accomplished what generations of religious conservatives never could.


Not even touching on how batshit the rest of that article is.

 

[asvarohn]

If being “gay” means being a man attracted to men, it assumes “man” is a stable, inherent category, when history shows the definition of manhood is constantly changing.

seems like here this person sets man (gender/social) = male (sex/biological).
this makes me wonder, when exactly does someone see themselves or others as gay/lesbian?
is this when they feel attracted to the sex (like the organs/physiognomy) or the behavior/mannerisms?

to try to understand if there was a utility behind the word

the word being 'gender' and i have no clue when it became a thing.
but like so many other words, it might have existed as a useful word long before media turned it into a label.

By blurring the lines between sex and gender, if such ideas ever actually achieved widespread acceptance, these ivory tower intellectuals will have accomplished what generations of religious conservatives never could.

which is what?
some religions don't make pay much attention to sex/gender while others do but treat both as equal.
it's mostly the abrahamic religions that need a sack full of words and labelds to discrimiate and hate and intimidate.

 

[mal3volent]

seems like here this person sets man (gender/social) = male (sex/biological).
this makes me wonder, when exactly does someone see themselves or others as gay/lesbian?
is this when they feel attracted to the sex (like the organs/physiognomy) or the behavior/mannerisms?

Gay and lesbian is a sexual orientation. Based on biological sex characteristics. Preferences when it comes to mannerisms and behavior is secondary and varies from person to person. For the most part unrelated to your base orientation. Sex and gender were used interchangeably to mean the exact same thing for the vast majority of my life. In my mind if you are a trans man who is attracted to men, you can identify yourself however you want. Call yourself a gay trans man all you want but you aren't a homosexual. Just by the strict definition of the word.

but like so many other words, it might have existed as a useful word long before media turned it into a label.

As I've said before, on any form before, idk... 2012 or something sex and gender meant the same thing. It was normal to see 'Gender' with a box marked M or F next to it. Yes the concept of gender roles and norms existed , but trans people (at least the ones I knew) did not think of themselves as identical to biological men/women. At some point in the recent past the idea that "women" as a social construct/gender was to overtake biological female as the de facto category where literally anyone who self identified as such could be included.

which is what?
some religions don't make pay much attention to sex/gender while others do but treat both as equal.
it's mostly the abrahamic religions that need a sack full of words and labelds to discrimiate and hate and intimidate.

For decades, centuries even, it was religious zealots and extremist right wingers who were trying to erode the rights of females as a protected class. And homosexuals/bisexuals. They fought against equality and failed. But now, there's an effort from the opposite end of the political spectrum to disenfranchise females and remove their protected spaces. And erase the very idea of same sex orientations.

 

[tryptakid]

Gay and lesbian is a sexual orientation. Based on biological sex characteristics. Preferences when it comes to mannerisms and behavior is secondary and varies from person to person. For the most part unrelated to your base orientation. Sex and gender were used interchangeably to mean the exact same thing for the vast majority of my life. In my mind if you are a trans man who is attracted to men, you can identify yourself however you want. Call yourself a gay trans man all you want but you aren't a homosexual. Just by the strict definition of the word.



As I've said before, on any form before, idk... 2012 or something sex and gender meant the same thing. It was normal to see 'Gender' with a box marked M or F next to it. Yes the concept of gender roles and norms existed , but trans people (at least the ones I knew) did not think of themselves as identical to biological men/women. At some point in the recent past the idea that "women" as a social construct/gender was to overtake biological female as the de facto category where literally anyone who self identified as such could be included.



For decades, centuries even, it was religious zealots and extremist right wingers who were trying to erode the rights of females as a protected class. And homosexuals/bisexuals. They fought against equality and failed. But now, there's an effort from the opposite end of the political spectrum to disenfranchise females and remove their protected spaces. And erase the very idea of same sex orientations.

I don't dispute some of your observation that the meaning of this stuff has changed. I firmly believe that the internet fueled a growth in discourse about these topics by bringing together a wide variety of perspectives into the "virtual town square". By creating a space for academics to interact with radical theorists and activists, the collective discourse began to move very fast. I think part of the anti-wokeness that has emerged as of late is evidence of ideological resistance... this stuff moved faster than many people 'feel' comfortable with. Same sex marriage has only been legal in the US for a decade, and in that time there has been a shift in focus away from sexual/romantic/legal rights and towards the right of people defining how they feel themselves to be, how they refer to themselves, and to be afforded recognition.

I won't argue your opinions on these matters - they're yours to have and own. I'm a straight dude so it really isn't my place to say whether any of this stuff is right or wrong. I just try to support what people want to think of themselves as, and I support people treating each other with kindness, decency, and openness. If you want to call yourself a genderfluid veloceraptor, then play on player.

 

[asvarohn]

If you want to call yourself a genderfluid veloceraptor, then play on player.

so this is basically my opinion, too.
what i don't get is why people make such a fuss about it. i mean i understand that they want to be heard and recognized as whatever, nothing against that.
but i have met people who felt offended just because they weren't addressed a certain way (he/she/they) in environments where other had no way to know how to address them other than what they saw. i mean, if dress like an emo, i have to expect people to treat me like one. same when i dress as a clown (guess most will think that's my job).
but so what?

is having a label to put on one's forehead really that important?
belonging, like it's mentioned in the article quote. but i can feel i belong without a label.

this goes a lot with the question about the gender issue, and also with the trans discussion on another thread.

 

[fuckabout89]

Can we just go back to the normal days when there was Gay, Lesbian and Trans. These sociologist live in make believe land, theres not thousand a genders you're either male or female or like men or dont. I use to be liberal leaning towards this stuff but my fuck really this is why we have so much fighting because of these guys that make shit so complicated when it doesn't need to be. I mean fuck a house that was built for 60,000 dollars costs upto 500,000 now we're under the biggest debt bubble ever. We gonna be fighting over this stupid shit when have no food in our bellies and no homes to live in. Now I agree we should respect Gays, Lesbians, and Trans I dont agree with trans shit for kids but ounce you're a adult your free to do what you want.

 

[Allylbenzene]

I'm a straight dude so it really isn't my place to say whether any of this stuff is right or wrong.

Same here, but I don't think this necessarily prevents you (or I) from forming a sensible informed perspective.

I just try to support what people want to think of themselves as,

If we are to support what people want to think of themselves as then biological women have a right to women-only spaces.

This stuff also has a direct impact on the family unit and how children are brought up (eg their emotional maturity and psychological paradigm & constitution). This subsequently impacts the future of humanity particularly in countries where this questionable attitude is popular/promoted. A kid with 2 moms has no sense of patriarchal self-governance and is easily manipulated by other patriarchal structures (eg authoritative governments, police etc). Which leads to my next point:

the idea that gender ideology was just the next evolution of sexism and homophobia

Imo this "degeneration of gender" is part of a wider psyop which many have been discussing for a while now. The pseudo-elites (see WEF etc) want to disrupt the family unit (cue gender degeneration via educational establishment propaganda).

 

[ions]

it's a moral bankruptcy. and he's just moving the goal posts.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Scholar makes case for moving beyond sexual labels

In a new book, sociologist Brandon Andrew Robinson calls for abolishing sexual identities. Robinson, an associate professor of gender and sexuality studies at UC Riverside, knows it’s a provocative thesis.

news.ucr.edu

I remember years ago when I first started subscribing to the idea that gender ideology was just the next evolution of sexism and homophobia, even the most radicalized individuals wouldn't have actually been brave enough to just come out and say these things openly. But it was pretty obvious this is where it was headed from the beginning.

My last thread regarding the concept of gender and what it actually means got sidetracked into political posturing but my aim was to try to understand if there was a utility behind the word. Unfortunately I think the utility is becoming more and more obvious.

By blurring the lines between sex and gender, if such ideas ever actually achieved widespread acceptance, these ivory tower intellectuals will have accomplished what generations of religious conservatives never could.


Not even touching on how batshit the rest of that article is.

Urgh, this is just complete, utter, nonsense.
Just another person with a "the-entire-world-should-change-everything-to-specially-accommodate-ME-at-the-effort-and-expensive-of-everybody-BUT-me" mentality.

 

[ions]

I didn't read it. But know that researchers will make outrageous claims for the attention. Like some people chop off their wiener for attention.

Get famous like the rest of us. Have some sort of artistic talent or something positive to contribute.

 

[tryptakid]

I do think that labels have become an increasingly important way for people to feel they can define themselves. In an age where many people feel lonely, unheard, unrecognized, and ultimately unable to define themselves (I think technology overuse is a huge part of this both through isolation and through cognitive changes resulting from tech dependence, but that's another theory I've been working on) I believe labels have become a way for people to feel like they have a definition. If it's not gender labels, it's political labels. If it's not political labels, it's fanfic labels. If it's not that, it's red pill/incel stuff (I'm an alpha, I'm an omega, you're a beta!) - it's all just people wanting a label that says "I am someone unique/special".

I believe it's all a symptom of the same sickness.

 

[ions]

Man up. Be a man. Have the balls to go over and talk to that pretty lady and her friends.

You don't have to be a natural. but it's something you can learn over time. The term natural woman is as far as I'd go. You're a male or female (or hermaphrodite). Trans are sterile but a transgender FTM still have a female anatomy. So it's like a schlong I learned you pump up having ovaries and such. Maybe the term hybrid is more appropriate.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

The term "gender" itself was a subversion of the English language. Control language and you control thought.

The thousands of genders and "battle of the sexes" is just a way to divide people along yet even more lines. Similar to how they did it with race/racism. The "revolutions" in such areas that happened in the 20th century were always about division of community and the family unit. People without bonds rely more on the state.

In the 1920s-1970s they divided the sexes. Everything was man vs. woman. Can clearly see the results of that today where most men and women are terrified of each other. The gender thing is just an extension of that. Now entire groups of men and women are terrified of other men and women within their own sex. I use terrified for lack of a better word, you can insert disgusted or whatever else. Doesn't matter. Same result: they don't trust each other.

No one should care about what other people do in their bedrooms (or the park at 3am, provided they aren't trying to do it in front of others). Similarly, people should care about groups of other people doing inappropriate things in public spaces (and in front of children). Like walking around in fetish wear where everyone else can see. It's just in bad taste. Doesn't matter if the person participating in that prefers to stick his penis in another man's ass or have various things rammed up their holes in the privacy of their own bedroom. Children should not see it and the rest of us shouldn't have to look at it.

You'll see a lot of double think in politics/society these days all in the name of division. Like "pride". It's well known that having too much pride can lead to your own down fall and pain. Lots of stupid bad things have been done over the years because someone was prideful. But then they turn right around and tell you pride in this or that is good. They teach children about how pride is good and everything these days.

You'll notice that a lot of bad people yammer on about pride. George Lincoln Rockwell loved talking about pride in your race, family and country. Hitler talked about pride a lot. Stalin and Mao to.

Some pride is a good thing. But when you are consumed by pride bad things happen. Which is why all these people that make speeches against whatever the current culture/political situation is always talk about it so much. They want to fill your heart up with pride and inspire you to action. Once the action happens and they topple the old ways they typically seize total power and become more oppressive than whatever they replaced.

All this gender stuff is just a way to make people feel special, divide them from their family, neighbors and (would be) friends, destroy the family unit, induce depression/anxiety, stir political divide and redirect anger/action that should have gone towards real positive action into rabbit holes where nothing ever gets done. In other words; It's pure distraction.

The best thing to do is ignore it. Whenever someone IRL starts going on about this kind of thing I politely try to change the subject. If they refuse to talk about literally anything else then I excuse myself from their presence. I don't care if they're a fan of sticking their penis up the hershey highway, muff divers or fag hater. I don't want to talk about or think about any of it. I don't care what other people do to get their rocks off.

Unless two girls are offering a threesome. Then I might be open to a short discussion and might even do some kinky shit. The only sex life I'm concerned with is my own and whomever wants to play with me.

Well that and the not teaching it to pre-schoolers thing. But I feel the same way about the whole issue of sex/reproduction being pushed on to children. It isn't exclusively something I have against any particular group. It should be taught by the parents. But barring that if the school must be involved then it should be taught much later than kindergarten. I can tell you from personal experience that teaching it to 5th graders is also not the best idea. Most of us already knew and the ones that didn't did not learn much of anything of value. But then again when they taught it to us again in 8th grade one of the girls asked if she could get pregnant by swallowing cum. We all laughed.

I'm trying to avoid a rant about it but you wouldn't believe some of the things going on within the public school system with the gender stuff at the moment. Your child makes one joke/passing comment and the teachers start showing up at your door and/or making phone calls demanding you have the child sent in for full psychological evaluation and calling you a bad parent because you don't want to start them on HRT right away. Even in my small town I've heard the same story from multiple parents about this. There is also a huge issue with allowing the children on the internet. They start playing a video game and join a discord server for it. Next thing you know there are 20 grown adults trying to convince your child that they're really in the wrong body and that they should start HRT. That their parents are bad people if they don't fully support their starting HRT. They start trying to get your child's address so they can send them pride flags. They offer to sell them HRT drugs (and in one case locally started sending them in the mail). It's really fucked up. Some of them really operate like a creepy cult.

I think of all the phases I went through as a child-teenager. The dumb shit I did to fit-in. The stuff I did because I thought I didn't fit-in. Most of it was stupid and I'm happy no record exists of it. It would have been terrible if I'd done irreversable damage to my body because of one of those phases or dumb ideas. Most things were things that didn't matter in the first place.

I think it's a crying shame that we're actively teaching most people these days that they should be ashamed of their own bodies. Sometimes people just need to hear the hard truth: There are things you simply will never be because of how you were born. We aren't all really equal. That's just how it is. Instead of worrying about this try to do your best with what you got and love yourself. You'll feel much better once you accept it.

Until we get technology for a proper body swap I'm afraid nothing is going to make you happy. We have tons of men/women out here too that didn't want to change sex but they did want to change everything else about themseleves. They think they're too fat/skinny, to tall/short, they hate their natural hair and eye color, they hate their race, they hate the size of their feet, their butt is too big/small, their titties are too big/small and on and on it goes. Sometimes you just have to accept things are what they are. If you believe in reincarnation you probably picked what you are now for some reason anyway. If you don't like it make some changes on the next go round and try to enjoy this one while you can.

 

[tryptakid]

The term "gender" itself was a subversion of the English language. Control language and you control thought.

The thousands of genders and "battle of the sexes" is just a way to divide people along yet even more lines. Similar to how they did it with race/racism. The "revolutions" in such areas that happened in the 20th century were always about division of community and the family unit. People without bonds rely more on the state.

In the 1920s-1970s they divided the sexes. Everything was man vs. woman. Can clearly see the results of that today where most men and women are terrified of each other. The gender thing is just an extension of that. Now entire groups of men and women are terrified of other men and women within their own sex. I use terrified for lack of a better word, you can insert disgusted or whatever else. Doesn't matter. Same result: they don't trust each other.

No one should care about what other people do in their bedrooms (or the park at 3am, provided they aren't trying to do it in front of others). Similarly, people should care about groups of other people doing inappropriate things in public spaces (and in front of children). Like walking around in fetish wear where everyone else can see. It's just in bad taste. Doesn't matter if the person participating in that prefers to stick his penis in another man's ass or have various things rammed up their holes in the privacy of their own bedroom. Children should not see it and the rest of us shouldn't have to look at it.

You'll see a lot of double think in politics/society these days all in the name of division. Like "pride". It's well known that having too much pride can lead to your own down fall and pain. Lots of stupid bad things have been done over the years because someone was prideful. But then they turn right around and tell you pride in this or that is good. They teach children about how pride is good and everything these days.

You'll notice that a lot of bad people yammer on about pride. George Lincoln Rockwell loved talking about pride in your race, family and country. Hitler talked about pride a lot. Stalin and Mao to.

Some pride is a good thing. But when you are consumed by pride bad things happen. Which is why all these people that make speeches against whatever the current culture/political situation is always talk about it so much. They want to fill your heart up with pride and inspire you to action. Once the action happens and they topple the old ways they typically seize total power and become more oppressive than whatever they replaced.

All this gender stuff is just a way to make people feel special, divide them from their family, neighbors and (would be) friends, destroy the family unit, induce depression/anxiety, stir political divide and redirect anger/action that should have gone towards real positive action into rabbit holes where nothing ever gets done. In other words; It's pure distraction.

The best thing to do is ignore it. Whenever someone IRL starts going on about this kind of thing I politely try to change the subject. If they refuse to talk about literally anything else then I excuse myself from their presence. I don't care if they're a fan of sticking their penis up the hershey highway, muff divers or fag hater. I don't want to talk about or think about any of it. I don't care what other people do to get their rocks off.

Unless two girls are offering a threesome. Then I might be open to a short discussion and might even do some kinky shit. The only sex life I'm concerned with is my own and whomever wants to play with me.

Well that and the not teaching it to pre-schoolers thing. But I feel the same way about the whole issue of sex/reproduction being pushed on to children. It isn't exclusively something I have against any particular group. It should be taught by the parents. But barring that if the school must be involved then it should be taught much later than kindergarten. I can tell you from personal experience that teaching it to 5th graders is also not the best idea. Most of us already knew and the ones that didn't did not learn much of anything of value. But then again when they taught it to us again in 8th grade one of the girls asked if she could get pregnant by swallowing cum. We all laughed.

I'm trying to avoid a rant about it but you wouldn't believe some of the things going on within the public school system with the gender stuff at the moment. Your child makes one joke/passing comment and the teachers start showing up at your door and/or making phone calls demanding you have the child sent in for full psychological evaluation and calling you a bad parent because you don't want to start them on HRT right away. Even in my small town I've heard the same story from multiple parents about this. There is also a huge issue with allowing the children on the internet. They start playing a video game and join a discord server for it. Next thing you know there are 20 grown adults trying to convince your child that they're really in the wrong body and that they should start HRT. That their parents are bad people if they don't fully support their starting HRT. They start trying to get your child's address so they can send them pride flags. They offer to sell them HRT drugs (and in one case locally started sending them in the mail). It's really fucked up. Some of them really operate like a creepy cult.

I think of all the phases I went through as a child-teenager. The dumb shit I did to fit-in. The stuff I did because I thought I didn't fit-in. Most of it was stupid and I'm happy no record exists of it. It would have been terrible if I'd done irreversable damage to my body because of one of those phases or dumb ideas. Most things were things that didn't matter in the first place.

I think it's a crying shame that we're actively teaching most people these days that they should be ashamed of their own bodies. Sometimes people just need to hear the hard truth: There are things you simply will never be because of how you were born. We aren't all really equal. That's just how it is. Instead of worrying about this try to do your best with what you got and love yourself. You'll feel much better once you accept it.

Until we get technology for a proper body swap I'm afraid nothing is going to make you happy. We have tons of men/women out here too that didn't want to change sex but they did want to change everything else about themseleves. They think they're too fat/skinny, to tall/short, they hate their natural hair and eye color, they hate their race, they hate the size of their feet, their butt is too big/small, their titties are too big/small and on and on it goes. Sometimes you just have to accept things are what they are. If you believe in reincarnation you probably picked what you are now for some reason anyway. If you don't like it make some changes on the next go round and try to enjoy this one while you can.

I think the internet, social media, and children interacting with anonymous adults is the problem here.

I'm increasingly convinced that there is very real neurodevelopmental damage occuring to children that are growing up online. I'm working on publishing a clinical series about the long term risks of technology use leading to psychopathologies including ADHD, executive functioning impairment, Memory problems, identity diffusion, delusional beliefs, obsessive/compulsive behaviors, depersonalization/derealization, and psychotic delusions particularly when using AI. I've seen an increase in clinical presentations that point to technology use as a conduit for damage or even impairing cognitive developement.

The notion that kids should somehow be able to self-moderate when it comes to social media nad stuff like vertifcal video is absolutely absurd. Adults can't do it, what makes us think kids could be able to? As a result, kids are exposed to an increasingly absurd notion of reality in which nothing is real and everything is too hard to pay attention to.

The issue isn't gender in my mind - the issue is the culture war creating a purity test as to how good a person are you. I think gender and sex are different. I think trans people, non-binary people, and gender fluid people are as valid as cis-men and cis-women. I also understand that not everyone sees it the way I do and that's fine. My beliefs are my own and they are informed by the evidence I've understood and explored in my own life.

 

[mal3volent]

No one said they aren't valid. The only one invalidating anyone is the guy this thread is about. Would it be accurate to say this is gay genocide?

 

[asvarohn]

I do think that labels have become an increasingly important way for people to feel they can define themselves.

should i ever feel like i need a label to define myself or feel that i 'belong' because of a label, that will be the moment i know i failed at being myself.
i remember how i once scared someone into silence with a look when they asked 'do women like you...?"
i am *not* women.
i can barely handle the label 'human'

but that's me.
if someone feels proud and happy of being called or labeling themselves this or that, be my guest.

 

[ions]

you are a girl growing up. a lady in adulthood. a women after you've given birth.

 

[ions]

or alternatively.
a boy. gentlemen. man.

 

[arrall]

Clickbait headline.

But they argue that discarding these labels is a critical step toward giving people the freedom to relate to one another on a deeper, more respectful, more meaningful, and more pleasurable level. Sexual identity, Robinson asserts, functions as a kind of prison, confining human desire and reinforcing a false notion of gender based on fixed, biological categories.

“Identities limit us,” Robinson writes in “Trans Pleasure: On Gender Liberation and Sexual Freedom.” “And the fact that we keep creating new identities — such as gynosexual, finsexual, sapiosexual, asexual, or pansexual — shows how these categories fail to capture the full complexities of gender, sexuality, and desire.”

So they are arguing against labels?
That's the big crusade against queers in your book?

Move over, Anita Bryant and JK Rowling.
You guys are good now, we have found the real #1 anti-2SLGBTQIA+ bigot in the world!

 

[tryptakid]

No one said they aren't valid. The only one invalidating anyone is the guy this thread is about. Would it be accurate to say this is gay genocide?

Maybe? The hypothesis seems to basically be that calling someone a "gay person" instead of "a person" is inherently stigmatizing given the history of anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric, and that the addition of gay creates unnecessary definition. Yet, to your point, I have met plenty of people who have expressed that being gay is part of their identity in an important way. Ideas like this may spark some buy-in from a very academic subset of the population, but it almost certainly isn't getting any mainstream traction any time soon.

I don't know - I do think we're addicted to labels as a way to form identities, instead of just defining ourselves by what we do and who we are in the world. I think some people get lost in that stuff, so in that sense I don't disagree with the author's starting place. Ironically, this almost reminds me of the notion of color-blindness when it comes to how people consider racism. When people say "I'm color blind, I don't look at people in terms of black or white" it's considered to be a form of racism because it invalidates or disregards the significance of what being black might mean for that person. In a way, I see what the author proposes as doing just that, which is my guess as to why it feels so hostile to you, @mal3volent

ETA: as I wrote my post I began to think a bit differently as I played with your question - I deleted the first sentence which was no longer in line with my conclusion.