Misc Nicotine and how to simulate or promote cigarette-like responses

[Druidus]

Are there any ways to obtain cigarette-type "buzzes" using nicotine stop-smoking aids? As far as I know, they all only provide nicotine, and this does not a cigarette-buzz make. You need the MAOI's in the tobacco, too, in order to really feel it. IMO, this makes pure nicotine aids futile and unworkable. It just doesn't feel like a cigarette. Even the inhalers I've tried do not approach it. I haven't had the occasion to try the E-Cig, but I think it'd have the same pitfalls.

So the question I'm left with is this: How could you obtain a workable source of the MAOI's in nicotine (or analogous other chems, if they work similarly), and then use it to simulate the MAOI inhalation from a cigarette? I'm not sure taking MAOI's orally would work the same, so I've considered vaporizing it, but I don't have a vaporizer right now, so that's out. Besides this, AFAIK, it's hard to obtain good MAOI's legally, so I'd still be buying cigs all the time just to vape it, a waste, when I have reams of pure nicotine.

Why haven't they incorporated an MAOI into any of these nicotine-to-replace-tobacco drugs? Too dangerous? Probably not, if they incorporated it into an inhaler device. Isn't that the same risk as cigs? They could even use the same ones. Wouldn't a product that did this quickly become the premier quitting-smoking aid? It seems to me it'd be perfect and give the same feel a cig does, minus smoke inhalation. Are they afraid it might, you know, work?

I'm open to ANY good ideas. I just want a way to potentiate pure nicotine in the same way that tobacco's natural MAOI's do, without using tobacco. I hope this is workable using OTC products or legal herbs. Nicotine, on its own, is a joke; it doesn't even TOUCH a craving, for me. It just tastes bad and makes me WANT a smoke, for the MAOI's, so I'm not wasting the frickin' stuff! If there was a decent technique to accomplish the role of the MAOI's in tobacco for the pure nicotine product replacement, then I think a LOT of people would be able to quit MUCH easier. As it stands, tobacco's nicotine will always be superior to even higher doses of pure nicotine. You can't get it to work at all, and it's a sad lie that they've perpetuated, which they don't even acknowledge. They seem to promote the idea that nicotine is all you need, and act like it's a really useful tool for cessation.

Let's try to change this by developing our own means to a better end then they've given us.

Anyone know if we could use MAOI's from black pepper, or even syrian rue? Maybe they could be extracted and vaped, not sure, and too tired to really think about it or research it much, I've been awake for a LONG time. Any advice on whether you could safely utilize them orally, or if that would work to potentiate nicotine at all? I'd be worried about the dangers of tyramine and drug interactions... Other ideas?

 

[DooMMooD]

Firstly nicotine itself IS a weak MAOI (EDIT WRONG!). You are right, there are MORE MAOIs in cigarettes, but to say that "it needs an MAOI to get you high" when it itself IS an MAOI is kinda not correct.

Check out this thread I've got sources and info you'll definitely be interested in:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/627223-Cigarettes-nicotine-as-MAO-Is

EDIT: I WAS INCORRECT! ONLY NOR/HARMAN ARE MAOIS

 

[tricomb]

I've used E-Cigs and they're nice but don't feel like real cigarettes, likely due to it containing hundreds to thousands less other chemicals.

 

[Druidus]

No, AFAIK, it is correct that nicotine's activity in the brain is greatly modified by the addition of a concurrently administered MAOI. Why wouldn't it be?

Yes, you can get "high" on pure nicotine. But why? It basically sucks without the MAOI. I'm talking from experience and from theoretical understanding. Thanks for the thread, I'll peruse it.

I've used E-Cigs and they're nice but don't feel like real cigarettes, likely due to it containing hundreds to thousands less other chemicals.

Sure, but couldn't we get a lot closer by combining it with the active MAOI's in tobacco?

 

[tricomb]

I really don't know, I'm unfortunately still occasionally, but regularly, smoking Turkish Royals. Only times I really smoke these days are 1) when around my chainsmoking friends, and 2) when I'm high as fuck.

The only ways I've ever managed to quit nicotine for any length of time (the longest for me was 1 year cancer-free) was when I'd get a nicotine craving, I'd just smoke some cannabis extracts. Sounds silly, but it actually worked.

I'm working on maybe transitioning to a portable nicotine vaporizer like an E-Cig, but I'm trying to find one that you can make custom cartridges for, so I could put hash oil in there also.

 

[DooMMooD]

Ah sorry I did include nicotine in that. Sorry it was ONLY harman/norharman I guess if your products contain those youre good. The second study in that thread shows both are MAOIs

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15582589

While it says there could possibly be more, it definitively isolated harman/norharman.

 

[polymath]

As far as I know, smokeless tobacco products like snuff don't inhibit MAO (pyrolysis is supposedly required for the formation of harman and norharman), but they can still be as addictive as smoking... For example, in this study it was observed that smokeless tobacco users had normal levels of MAO-B. This doesn't seem to support the theory that simultaneous MAO inhibition is required to get pleasure from nicotine.

 

[Druidus]

It is worth noting that nicotine, although frequently implicated in producing tobacco addiction, is not significantly addictive when administered alone.[172] The addictive potential manifests itself after co-administration of an MAOI, which specifically causes sensitization of the locomotor response in rats, a measure of addictive potential.[173]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_tobacco#Nicotine

I'm not saying it can't cause pleasure separate from MAOI activity. I'm saying it causes WAY more when combined.

Also, tobacco doesn't contain just harmane and norharman. (all quotes from wiki)

"Tobacco smoke contains the monoamine oxidase inhibitors harman, norharman,[18] anabasine, anatabine, and nornicotine. These compounds significantly decrease MAO activity in smokers.[18][19] MAO enzymes break down monoaminergic neurotransmitters such as dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin."

Anabasine is a pyridine alkaloid found in the Tree Tobacco (Nicotiana glauca) plant, a close relative of the common tobacco plant (Nicotiana tabacum). Chemically, it is similar to nicotine. Its principal (historical) industrial use is as an insecticide.

Anabasine is present in trace amounts in tobacco smoke, and can be used as an indicator of a person's exposure to tobacco smoke.

Anatabine (uh-nat-uh-been,-bin) is one of the minor alkaloids found in plants in the Solanaceae family, which includes the tobacco plant and tomato, that has been shown to affect monoamine oxidase (MAO) activity.[1][2] Anatabine is found in cigarette tobacco and smoke, and is absorbed in the human body after tobacco use.

Dwoskin, L.P. et al.
Acute and chronic effects of nornicotine on locomotor activity in rats: altered response to nicotine.
RATIONALE: Nicotine, a tobacco alkaloid, is known to be important in the acquisition and maintenance of tobacco smoking. Nornicotine, an active nicotine metabolite, stimulates nicotinic receptors and may produce psychomotor effects similar to nicotine. OBJECTIVE: The present study determined the effects of acute and repeated administration of nornicotine on locomotor activity and compared its effects with those of nicotine. METHODS: R(+)-Nornicotine (0.3-10 mg/kg), S(-)-nornicotine (0.3-10 mg/kg), S(-)-nicotine (0.1-1 mg/kg) or saline was administered s.c. to rats acutely or repeatedly (eight injections at 48-h intervals). Activity was recorded for 50 min immediately after each injection. RESULTS: S(-)-Nicotine produced transient hypoactivity, followed by dose-related hyperactivity. Repeated S(-)-nicotine administration resulted in tolerance to the hypoactivity and sensitization to the hyperactivity. Subsequent testing following a saline injection revealed evidence of conditioned hyperactivity. Acute administration of 0.3 mg/kg or 1 mg/kg R(+)- or S(-)-nornicotine produced no effect. Transient hypoactivity was observed at 3 mg/kg and 10 mg/kg R(+)-nornicotine and at 10 mg/kg S(-)-nornicotine. However, rebound hyperactivity was not observed following acute administration of either nornicotine enantiomer, suggesting that nornicotine-induced psychomotor effects differ qualitatively from those of S(-)-nicotine. Repeated R(+)-nornicotine resulted in tolerance to the transient hypoactivity, however hyperactivity was not observed. Repeated S(-)-nornicotine resulted in tolerance to the hypoactivity and the appearance of hyperactivity. Repeated administration of either nornicotine enantiomer resulted in a dose-dependent alteration in response to a 1 mg/kg S(-)-nicotine challenge, suggesting some commonalities in the mechanism of action. CONCLUSION: Nornicotine likely contributes to the neuropharmacological effects of nicotine and tobacco use.[1]
References

1. Acute and chronic effects of nornicotine on locomotor activity in rats: altered response to nicotine. Dwoskin, L.P., Crooks, P.A., Teng, L., Green, T.A., Bardo, M.T. Psychopharmacology (Berl.) (1999)

Final Quote: http://www.wikigenes.org/e/ref/e/10460322.html

Other MAOI's are present in tobacco before you smoke it, and nicotine metabolizes to one anyway, so is still affected by them, especially in methods of use that result in longer periods before full metabolism is achieved.

 

[DooMMooD]

If you read my post I never said said nor/harman are the only other chemicals in a cigarette. I said it was ONLY NOR/HARMAN IDENTIFIED IN THAT STUDY. They are just 2 chemicals that are POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED as MAOIs in that study. Obviously cigarettes contain thousands of chemicals, and many of them we are unsure of all the effects they have on the human body in cigarette smoke.

My point was if the mixture you have contains those two then you already have an MAOI in there.

 

[polymath]

There's one thing I don't quite understand... Even smoking a huge amount of tobacco doesn't cause enough MAO inhibition to have dangerous interactions with tyramine-rich foods, SSRI:s etc... How can an enzyme inhibitor have this kind of a 'ceiling effect'?

 

[Druidus]

Edit: Very tired, sorry about any errors I might have made, I'm not thinking the best right now.

Because its MAO inhibition is short lived and not as strong as many others; and also it is smoked so it reaches the nervous system rapidly and is quickly deactivated. Its effects are mainly focused on the nervous system. A side effect of smoking it is that it bypasses the gastrointestinal tract and thus potential interactions with tyramine rich foods.

I can't say I know for sure, but I'd hazard to guess it's because it's inhaled, primarily. There's likely more to it, related to specifics of the MAOI's in question, and I don't have that knowledge. I just don't think you can discount the MAOI relationship with nicotine out of hand when it's demonstrated to increase addictive potential in rats.

Another thing to consider is that the concentration of MAOI's actually inhaled in cigs are generally low, and the potency of these MAOI's may not be all that high. Perhaps they are strong enough to affect dopamine in an addictive and pleasurable manner, but not enough to cause significant problems with drug interactions.

Have you ever smoked a cig on MDMA, or on mushrooms? It's quite remarkable. You can feel the MAOI activity, because it definitely doesn't feel like nicotine alone, and intensifies my trips quite a bit, temporarily.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

The only nicotine replacement I have ever liked is e-cigarettes. It is still not the same as smoking a real tobacco cigarette, because it only contains nicotine and not the thousands of other chemicals present in tobacco, not to mention the ones added to tobacco for "tailor-made" cigarettes (as opposed to if you just took some dried tobacco with nothing added to it and smoked it). But IMO e-cigs are hundreds of times more effective and enjoyable than nicotine gum etc. I also thing the psychological aspects are important: vaping an e-cig tricks your brain into thinking you are smoking and feels closer to smoking. I would give a good-quality e-cigarette a chance if you haven't already tried it.


EDIT: Personally I think that the nicotine replacement therapy/smoking cessation industry (of which e-cigs are not considered a part of, interestingly) is bogus. There is no evidence that people are able to quit smoking any easier with NRTs than they are without them. It's big business, more money for the pharmaceutical companies. It's actually better business for them if we don't quit, and we keep buying more of their product. The government perpetuates the myth that nicotine is the only active and addictive ingredient in cigarettes, and I can't help but wonder if this is in part because tobacco companies add so many chemicals to tobacco, and looking into their effects might risk a possible finding that some of the shit that they add to cigarettes makes them more addictive. The government makes a lot of money from the taxes on cigarettes. You may think this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but personally I think it's all a big racket.

 

[tricomb]

If anyone knows anything about e-cigs, please see my thread.