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NEWS: What do we really know about Red Mitsubishis? - Paul Dillon

johnboy

Bluelight Crew
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Mr Dillon asked if I could post this here. It was recently published in the Sydney Star Observer.

Over the past couple of weeks ecstasy users across the country were warned that there appeared to be a batch of pills around that could possibly contain PMA. These pills appeared to be marketed as ‘red Mistubishis’. In addition to this warning there was also an ecstasy-related death which the media immediately linked to these pills.

So what do we actually know about this whole story – were there PMA pills doing the rounds and is there any link between these and the death of the Sydney teenager?

First of all what is PMA? PMA (paramethoxyamphetamine) is an amphetamine-type drug with both stimulant and hallucinogenic properties. It has no medical use. Its effects are similar to those of MDA, although PMA is far more toxic. It first appeared as a recreational drug in North America in the early 1970s, usually sold as MDA, and became associated with fatalities soon after it entered into street use. In Ontario, for example, the deaths of nine young people were confirmed to be caused by PMA between March and August 1973.

A couple of weekends ago two young men were admitted to St Vincent’s Hospital after taking ecstasy. One was extremely ill and caused emergency workers great concern. In the following couple of days an email was circulated across the gay community which was based on an element of truth but also contained a number of inaccuracies. It said that two people were admitted to hospital (true), they had taken ‘red Mitsubishis’ (supposedly true), one had died (false), toxicology had been carried out (false), and the pills were 10 times stronger than normal ecstasy (false – we didn’t know that information).

As a result of this email and great community concern ACON issued a warning about the possibility of a particularly toxic batch of ecstasy being on the streets. So where did the PMA come from – who suggested it and what evidence did we have? Well, a quick search of the internet will show you that ‘red Misubishis’ have been linked with PMA since 2000 when there was a death of a young man in Austria. Since that time the PMA/’red Mitsubishi’ urban myth has reared its ugly head a number of times. Over the past week I have done a great deal of searching looking for any hard evidence since that time of a link between the brand and PMA. I can find none.

Sadly the death of the teenage girl last weekend only added fuel to the fire. We are still waiting for toxicology results but most experts believe there is no link between the supposed toxic batch and her death. We could be proven wrong but it is looking highly doubtful that her death was PMA-related.

I believe that warnings need to be disseminated very carefully – we need to have good hard facts to support our claims. At no time was there any evidence to indicate that PMA was contained in any pills in Sydney. We do not want to be perceived as the ‘boy who cried wolf’, or users will simply not believe us the next time.

The warning was definitely heeded by many in the community. People were concerned that they could have ‘bad pills and adjusted their behaviour accordingly. This was an extremely positive response and the community should be applauded for this. However, I would urge all agencies (hospitals, community agencies or governments) to be extremely careful in the future of naming possible substances unless they can be verified by toxicology. Our credibility is of the upmost importance – let’s not lose it!!

Remember: If you do not want any negative consequences, do not use the drug and no matter how many times you have used a substance – never be blasé.

Sorry for another thread but I didn't want this to get lost in the noise of multi-page threads. It quite succinctly sums up my attitude to all of this; let's not fall victim to the 'boy who cried wolf" syndrome. And that means any of us, users or authority figures.
 
this echos what many were thinking but were perhaps unable to say for fear of misinforming about possible misinformation. one lesson was reinforced... buy a tester.
 
.dR spgeddi said:
this echos what many were thinking but were perhaps unable to say for fear of misinforming about possible misinformation. one lesson was reinforced... buy a tester.

Agreed! The media certainly done a good job of slowing up the trade of red mitsibishi's. A prime example of why a Robadope reagent is a handy tool to have.
 
When this story broke and I received information that there had been no toxicology done I was surprised that ACON had published such sweeping statements with no hard facts. Why the hell would they link a previous 'PMA batch' of red mitsubishi's in America to a current batch in Australia? Do they not know that logos mean nothing? I am sure they had good intentions, but their haste in publishing a warning that was not scientifically verified is what started this snowball in the first place. ACON =
13.gif
 
Most of the 'authority figures' that I am aware of - certainly medical ones-who have provided an opinion have gone to some length to differentiate the 'red mitsubishi' from PMA, and emphasized the absence of forensic or toxicological evidence to support a link. Whether that lack of link was then adequately represented in the media is a matter for the media. I know that I was ceratinly mis-quoted in the Advertiser- the worlds worst newspaper. On the week-end in question, there were 10 undifferentaited drug overdoses at the RAH, which was reported as 10 PMA overdoses. I made the reporter repeat to me that she understood that there was no proven link between 'red mitsubishis' and PMA, and she still mis-reported it. I think you need to turn to media outlets for scapegoats rather than those who actually know what they are talking about...

Any comments regarding what PMA itself can do to you are absolutely legit. Having said that, after speaking to the people who actually treated the recent spate of overdoses, the presentations were certainly consistent with PMA. Full stop. No question. In another thread, I also said that it could also have been a simple MDMA overdose. In medicine, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is safest to treat it like a duck. Emergency doctors are trained to deal with worst case scenarios, and then be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be something else. How popular would we be if by some strange twist of fate we were presented with a case of what looked like Ebola virus (a lethal viral haemorrhagic fever), or even more likely, a suspicious white powder in an envelope labelled 'anthrax' in a busy Sydney hospital, and didn't do anything about it until we had a confirmed diagnosis? We'd be lynched; and rightly so. Doctors have every right to say precisely what their concerns are, whenever they want to; if something is serious enough for a doctor to go public with it, you just KNOW they're worried. Medicine is a conservative profession, and there are some who who see deaths from drug overdose as a process of natural selection- be thankful that there are those concerned enough not only to take an interest, but also express it

Personally, I don't think any of the medics (myself included) are guilty of crying wolf. If this has highlighted the potential dangers associated with taking unknown, untested pills, from unknown origins (as opposed to just MDMA), well then good. This choice of lifestyle is not one without its dangers, and whether it makes you feel warm and fluffy or not, some of the threads that I have read here in the last year suggest that an occasional reminder wouldn't go amiss. Come and walk a hundred feet in a busy emergency docs shoes before you think that there might have been an over-reaction from the medical profession...:|
 
And another thing...

... although Paul correctly mentions the deaths which occurred in Ontario in the 70's, there is no mention of any of the Australian deaths since 1995, or of the fact that Australia is still the world capital of toxicologically proven PMA deaths (even by Shulgin's reckoning) on absolute recorded cases. It is hardly surprising that a twitchy medical profession might issue warnings about PMA (not red mitsubishis) on the basis of that frequently overlooked background. :p
 
Cowboy Mac ... I wouldn't beat up on ACON too hard, as they did their press release in the week leading up to the Sydney GLBT Sleaze Party, where in excess of 10,000 punters would be partying -- a great deal of them on untested pills. In my opinion, ACON issued a warning to its prime constituents, the GLBT community.

ACON is already getting quite a drubbing in the Sydney gay community over its perceived lack of effort in countering a cummunity perception of the link between Xtal use and unsafe sex practices leading to increased cases of HIV seroconversion.
 
I very much include the media in my definition of authority figures. Everybody with a stake in this has to use incidents such as this as a lesson in how to do things and how not to do them. That's the only way we improve things.

This situation has shown that not only do we desperately need an early warning system set up in Australia but that we have to be very careful in how it is set up and how it is operated. The back end of testing and analysis is going to be worse than useless if we do not spend the time on making sure that the messages are communicated to users by media that will focus on the message, and not their own agenda.
 
Originally posted by eccitude
Cowboy Mac ... I wouldn't beat up on ACON too hard, as they did their press release in the week leading up to the Sydney GLBT Sleaze Party, where in excess of 10,000 punters would be partying -- a great deal of them on untested pills. In my opinion, ACON issued a warning to its prime constituents, the GLBT community.

I understand ACON's motives, however I feel that they should have waited for toxicology confirmation before issuing a warning. That is simply my personal opinion.
 
Definately agree with you Doc, my comments were not meant to imply that the misdiagnosis is to blame for the whole scare campaign, nor that the docter wasn't doing his job for being overly cautious, (Professional liability is something I'm scared off too). My point was that the patient was diagnosed and treated as a PMA overdose and the media then goes "Well if it was treated as PMA then it must have been PMA and lets not worry about any hard proof".


As they say, lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story.
 
Its been an interesting few weeks in the media and around here. There was wasnt much chance 2 years ago reading anything in and newspaper that we have been lately. This article is basically what I and a lot of others were thinking and its good that there is the chance for the voice to be heard.
 
So am I right in saying that we still don't know what was in the red mitsubishi pills and also if it isn't PMA what is causing all these acute reactions (Not just the reported ones, but people on bluelight claiming bad reactions also)?
Sorry if I misinterpreted something, i'm just still sort of confused.

I actually had one of these before the scare (although hesitant due to the history and myths of past pills), after they had been tested and reviewed by friends. Although it did feel like a "strong" pill (MDMA or whatnot), It also lacked some euphoria and I was sort of sent into an almost negative experience, which took me by suprise. Also they felt significantly more "chargey" then all of my experiences yet quite "smacky" at the same time. However set and setting could have played a large influence on the effects...

Could these just be a strong dose, or is there more relating to the coincidental bad reactions? Was there a good and bad batch?
Apologies if my post is stupid and lacks sense Im pretty tired :|
 
It's absolutely not a stupid question, Baker and your experience is very similar to that of growing number of people. A whole bunch of us on the other side of the fence are aware of 'something different' happening at the moment. Colleagues in NSW, VIC and SA are all saying that the nature of overdoses attending in the last month or so to emergency room is different- less 'silly' and more dirty. I have a few blood samples cooking at the moment, and have tried to pin it down earlier, but so far no joy. I would say to watch what you're taking, make a note of it, and if you have a bad experience, tell someone.
The system for tracking these things down is very like tracking infectious diseases- the rapidity with which it is identified is proportional to the amount of good info we receive. If you are in Adelaide, and you od/get a bit more sketchy than you would have liked, come to us at the RAH; not only will we cure you (take that as a given!), if you want us to, we now have the technology to tell what was REALLY in your pill. If people prefer to pm me, that's just dandy; rest assured, we started our hunt a few weeks back...

Dr Platypus (AKA Big Game Drug Hunter);)
 
I think the ACON warning may have been a timing issue. They issued their press release on Tuesday 28 September. The Sydney Gay press all comes out on Thursdays, and the Sleaze party was on that Saturday. There may simply have not been enough time to wait for proper analysis of the substances taken by these people in order to get a community wide warning out to those attending the party. From what I understand, people were being verbally warned about the possible dangers as they entered Fox studios on the night as well. They were also being warned about G too. I'm not sure it has done anyone any real harm in being reminded that our party favourites aren't pharmaceutical grade, and perhaps has also served a warning to dealers that may now be carrying bag loads of unsold red mitsi's that it can't always be their way.

One positive to come out of it all is these types of discussions.
 
Cowboy Mac said:

I understand ACON's motives, however I feel that they should have waited for toxicology confirmation before issuing a warning. That is simply my personal opinion.

I'm with you on this one. If ACON want to be considered a proffessional agency then they should act professionally. To claim a pill contains PMA without any solid evidence other then a few adverse reactions is ridiculas as claiming a pill contain heroin becasue they feel "smacky". All it does is fuel more mis-information, rumour and heresay. They should have just issued a general warning that the pills may contain adultarants that can cause issues.
 
Nicely said drplatypus, I like your posts in relation to this and I 100% support you.

:)

Id rather someone give some kinda warning weather it be needed or not, than to have NO warning what-so-ever in relation to matters as such.

I doubt very muchly that authority figures would ever been seen as "crying wolf" and be looked upon as untrustworthy because face it we are playing game with our lives here.....
 
Thank God for this thread and all concerned. I think most people expected this eventually.

The warning was definitely heeded by many in the community. People were concerned that they could have ‘bad pills and adjusted their behaviour accordingly.
This is a positive thing as Paul said but the cynic in me suggests less scrupulous individuals/entities may seek to exploit this in the future.

Just today we had a 100 pill bust of red mitsis in Perth - 100 pills not overly newsworthy, however as the police made the point that these were suspected of containing PMA and responsible for deaths over east it was one of the first items of the bulletin. Ok we have proof some of these are being held by the police - will they rush through a GC/MS on them? maybe; Will they release the results to the public - never; as all deterrent effect will be lost. Will they release the results to hospitals here, I would hope so, even if it is just 130mg of MDMA in each.

Baker and your experience is very similar to that of growing number of people. A whole bunch of us on the other side of the fence are aware of 'something different' happening at the moment. Colleagues in NSW, VIC and SA are all saying that the nature of overdoses attending in the last month or so to emergency room is different- less 'silly' and more dirty. I have a few blood samples cooking at the moment, and have tried to pin it down earlier, but so far no joy. I would say to watch what you're taking, make a note of it, and if you have a bad experience, tell someone.
This is a shame - are you saying you believe something may be amiss with pills recently but police do not provide you will quantitative results from seizures?

Good to hear you can now do your own tests but it burns me up; as I said in another thread virtually every pill ever seized is analysed quantitatively. The results exist - somewhere. Granted they may not bother to consider rogue impurities or low dose adulterants if they get a positive for MDMA, but if something is going on, I think the Chemists at the Government laboratories should be required to keep all results, charts and findings and make them available to bona fide health professionals who may want to investigate any issues further.
 
The Red Mitsubisihi issues has been a very valuable exercise for many reasons not really related to Red Mitsubishis.

It has highlighted a number of things:

1) The media is quick to report but has little understanding of these issues

2) We have no real standard response in terms of testing and disseminating toxicological results from various disparate hospitals, especially those who don't see much of this. To be honest, you can count the number of pill related presentations at Nepean Hospital in a year on one hand, so someone dying there from a party drug issue will be well outside of their normal activity. St Vincents, on the other hand, gets it so often they would barely have time to do proper toxicology. The net result is a lot of guessing, missued opportunities and even if they did know, do they know who to tell? I have personally send enquiries to ICU staff at Nepean re the recent death and they won't tell me a thing because a) It is confidential and b) they don't realise the importance of disseminating toxicology - and given their exposure and isolation from the party drugs scene, why would they?

3) The speed of the response is clearly not consistent with the flow of information. True, ACON put out press based on limited information and poor scientific data, but here you are the main gay health advicate, five minutes before the biggest gay dance party in Sydney with associated follow up events - what are you supposed to do? The answer - tell everyone not to take the red ones and cross your fingers. I worked Queer Nation the next day and there was tons of info but it was vague and based on street myth, but it was all they had at the time. Even I ringing everyone I knew in Sydney coudln;t get any hard data on these deaths in a week, how could ACON do it with less than days before a BIG event.

As I am sure Dr Platypus would agree, the information dissemination issues with party drug related health issues is unique in many ways. Most doctors wouldn't release patient toxicology under threat of death and probably federal privacy legislation - but few bits of toxicology are useful to the general popualtion the way drug OD toxicology is.

Cheers,

Buck
 
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