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Bupe New on Bupe after heavy Oxy - Need Advice ASAP

^^

Yeah I thought that too. Sometimes methadone really is the best option. A lot of people have a big fear of it from all the horror stories, but if you use it right, taper correctly and slowly, it really isn't that bad, and for people with large habits with a history of chronic relapsing, it can be a real life saver.
 
Well, that was part of why I wanted to taper so fast (along with other people's advice and stories), but anything less than 1mg doesn't really stop withdrawal, so even if I were to taper down to .25mg, I am still looking at potentially another three weeks of feeling bad?? Not to mention any potential PAWS after getting it all out of my system...hard to wrap my head around.

I have heard a couple of stories where people felt similar on suboxone, switched to subutex, and that seemed to help (possible bad reaction to naxlone?? although I thought it was supposed to be mostly inactive via oral ROA). I have a Dr appt tomorrow, but not sure if that is even an option.

In a perfect world you are probably correct, but like I said, the duration is really starting to get to me. I would almost prefer a short acute WD than death by a thousand cuts so-to-speak...but that sounds like rationalization to even me a bit, and I really wanted to give this an honest go.
 
^^

Yeah I thought that too. Sometimes methadone really is the best option. A lot of people have a big fear of it from all the horror stories, but if you use it right, taper correctly and slowly, it really isn't that bad, and for people with large habits with a history of chronic relapsing, it can be a real life saver.

It really is though. Once you get a serious physical dependence, you can't just say. "Shucks, I'll taper with buprenorphine or Kratom or loperamide and still go to work as if everything's normal!@

And at for some(myself included) you just don't feel right, mentally, without opiates, and you need long-term treatment with a potent long lasting opioid like methadone.

I mean it's legal for a reason. They're aren't Adderal clinics for methheads...(no offense to them, unto each they're own
 
Hello All,

I have been reading so much lately my eyes feel like they are going to fall out. I imagine there is information available, but I just can't find something that specifically answers the exact question, and feel in critical time period of bupe use, so please feel free to point to other thread if already answered! A brief background about my friend:

He is typically sensitive to chemicals, and has historically been able to experience strong effects (both positive and negative) at very low doses. He fell in love with oxy, and after a good run at keeping a very low dose, it exponentially shot up and stuck around the 350 - 450 mg of crushed OP 80s. He can't financially support that habit for a any longer, nor should he, and he tried CT detox. Thinking this was a 3 day experience, at day 5 gave in and decided to taper better. This did not work as planned, and six days ago started on suboxone. He waited 24 hours to dose, although honestly not at COWS 26, based on Dr orders, and thinks he went into PW. In other words, symptoms went from mild to moderate, to very severe (bed ridden hot/cold flashes, fatigue, etc) after taking 2mg sub-lingual suboxone. Took 2mg every two hours up to 8mg. Day 2, take two 4mg doses, still have moderate withdrawal symptoms. Day 3, 8mg, still mild withdrawal symptoms. Dr says not taking enough to rid WD thus increased to 12-14mg on day 4, then dropped to 10mg day 5, and so far 5mg day 6. The sudden drop to 6mg didn't bother him much, and actually felt slightly better than prior day, but still have sweaty hands/feet, no appetite, mild sleep issues, and lack of energy appitite (but very manageable relative to the CT oxy WD)!

Main question: If wanting to avoid WD symptoms from the suboxone, yet fully take care of physical oxy WD symptoms, is it best to do a fast taper now and jump off before the Suboxone fully takes hold? Or, should he stabilize doses, then do a longer taper, yet risk using the suboxone for 3-4 weeks instead of 2 weeks. I have seen on this forum where very short term sub uses have been very successful, but in these cases the starting dose was usually much smaller (~2mg), thus easier to taper faster, or they felt better instantly after taking it and didn't get PW, or did not have near as much oxy habit to start.

Opinions / experience very much appreciated as I feel he is in a critical time window to make this decision. Thank you in advance fellow BL members!

ive detoxed myself off dope like 5 or 6 time nd my habit was like 4 bundles a day nd id start off wirth a full 8 mg sub for 3 days drop down two a 4 mg for 3 days drop down to 2 mg for 3 days then down to 1 mg for 2 days nd I was straight I never lost a wink of sleep...but the problem is I am a chronic relapse which is why im now on methadone...ik the kick is worse than dope but my situation is complicated nd the pros weigh out the cons BEST OF LUCK BRO HOPE EVERYTHING GOES WELL
 
It really is though. Once you get a serious physical dependence, you can't just say. "Shucks, I'll taper with buprenorphine or Kratom or loperamide and still go to work as if everything's normal!@

And at for some(myself included) you just don't feel right, mentally, without opiates, and you need long-term treatment with a potent long lasting opioid like methadone.

I mean it's legal for a reason. They're aren't Adderal clinics for methheads...(no offense to them, unto each they're own

Exactly, man.
 
Yeah, mdones may be a better options for me. The first time I tried CT I had 1.5 10mg mdone pills, which really helped during day 2 and 3, but then ran out. And at that point I was really naive regarding the whole DT process (thought it would only take 3-4 days tops!), so that when I hit day 5-6 and still felt bad, I freaked out that I just ruined with the mdones (only had access to that amount) and just delayed it (which I probably did, but still never gave myself enough time to fully figure out).

My current doctor is just a family practice, so I am guessing I would have to find another place entirely for that.

I really appreciate the encouragement and advice though guys. This whole process has been very eye opening, and scary, to realize just exactly how bad a place I really was in.

Are mdone clinics typically good with dosing, or are they like drs and usually start people way too high?
 
Nah, they will start you way low, BUT they will continue to increase you daily(or every 2-3 days as the dose increases) until YOU tell them to stop. Of course, each clinic has it's own "glass ceiling" after which, to go higher, you have to go through a bit of trouble.

But don't worry, you'll need nowhere near that much. IDK what dose you will ultimately be comfortable with, but likely 60-80mg.
 
^^

Yeah most clinics start you at 20 or 30mg's and go up from there until you're stable. Just don't be one of those patients that keeps upping your dose chasing a high, otherwise you'll end up in 10x worse shape than you were before. Find the right dose that makes you feel good, preferably as low as possible, and stay on it till you're ready to taper, and do it slowly.
 
I thought it was ur friend that needed this info, not u right? Lol.....sorry, but that's what u said in the beginning
 
....and from experience (I've been on subs for over two years now) I know that no matter how low a dose u taper to, when u jump, ur gonna feel some kind of WD symptoms for at least a few weeks, up to a month even. So there is no getting away from that, period. If I were u, I'd jump now, ur already at a very low dose, so now is when u can minimize the WD symptoms when they do start.....Good luck in ur journey to sobriety and God bless.
 
I thought it was ur friend that needed this info, not u right? Lol.....sorry, but that's what u said in the beginning
 
Well, that was part of why I wanted to taper so fast (along with other people's advice and stories), but anything less than 1mg doesn't really stop withdrawal, so even if I were to taper down to .25mg, I am still looking at potentially another three weeks of feeling bad?? Not to mention any potential PAWS after getting it all out of my system...hard to wrap my head around.

You probably tapered too quickly then.

Suboxone builds up in your system, so if you want to get an idea of where you are you should look at how much you've taken in the last 8-10 days. If you lowered your dose, then lowered it two days later because you felt alright, it could just be that you lowered too much without ever stabilizing.

I don't understand your overall game plan here. You don't want to be WDing for weeks on end (who would?), but you don't want to be on suboxone for long because you're worried about a long WD (even though you can taper to a low dose), but you're not doing a slow enough taper now so you're still feeling crappy for long periods of time, which is what you didn't want to do in the first place.


I thought it was ur friend that needed this info, not u right? Lol.....sorry, but that's what u said in the beginning

The original poster edited their first post. They had originally used "SWIM" (Someone Who Isn't Me) but we don't follow that type of format on Bluelight.
 
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Jus wanna say that I use anywhere from 200mg to 350mg of oxycodone 2 weeks out of the month(every other week). Then the weeks between, I usually use half bundle to a bundle of D. I jus got ahold of some subs and I have to say that I was real surprised that 2mg of sub stabilized me ... Def took two hours tho. Then 35 hours later I took 1mg and felt good for 24 hr. I ended up messing up but I'm very anxious to try Again bc I feel like I coul have done jus like 2 more days of like .5 then jump off and feel ok. Going to try this week. U guys are really helpful!
 
I thought it was ur friend that needed this info, not u right? Lol.....sorry, but that's what u said in the beginning

Yes, I initially used verbiage that is not appropriate for the BL community, and after additional experience and understanding of the rules, I have subsequently changed my approach to how I communicate on the forum.

You probably tapered too quickly then.

Suboxone builds up in your system, so if you want to get an idea of where you are you should look at how much you've taken in the last 8-10 days. If you lowered your dose, then lowered it two days later because you felt alright, it could just be that you lowered too much without ever stabilizing.

I don't understand your overall game plan here. You don't want to be WDing for weeks on end (who would?), but you don't want to be on suboxone for long because you're worried about a long WD (even though you can taper to a low dose), but you're not doing a slow enough taper now so you're still feeling crappy for long periods of time, which is what you didn't want to do in the first place.

I do not currently have the time to provide a full update, explanation, and final summary of conclusions and intended path, but I will post one after I get back from my Dr. appointment. Thank you for checking back.
 
Jus wanna say that I use anywhere from 200mg to 350mg of oxycodone 2 weeks out of the month(every other week). Then the weeks between, I usually use half bundle to a bundle of D. I jus got ahold of some subs and I have to say that I was real surprised that 2mg of sub stabilized me ... Def took two hours tho. Then 35 hours later I took 1mg and felt good for 24 hr. I ended up messing up but I'm very anxious to try Again bc I feel like I coul have done jus like 2 more days of like .5 then jump off and feel ok. Going to try this week. U guys are really helpful!

Hello Love88, I am really glad you found an approach that worked well for you, and that you found this thread useful. It has definitely provided me with a great deal of understanding and insight that I feel has helped in my overall HR goal. Hopefully my next post will provide some additional insight into my particular bupe experience.
 
....and from experience (I've been on subs for over two years now) I know that no matter how low a dose u taper to, when u jump, ur gonna feel some kind of WD symptoms for at least a few weeks, up to a month even. So there is no getting away from that, period. If I were u, I'd jump now, ur already at a very low dose, so now is when u can minimize the WD symptoms when they do start.....Good luck in ur journey to sobriety and God bless.

Yeah there is no way to detox unscathed, short of putting yourself in a coma for 2 months, ha. You are going to feel some withdrawals no matter what, it's just a matter of how bad. But if you taper right and come off at a low dose, they will be very manageable. Night and day difference compared to hopping off your DOC at whatever your normal high tolerance is.
 
Hello Love88, I am really glad you found an approach that worked well for you, and that you found this thread useful. It has definitely provided me with a great deal of understanding and insight that I feel has helped in my overall HR goal. Hopefully my next post will provide some additional insight into my particular bupe experience.

So I started again tonight... I don't know what happened this time... I got home from work at 7pm tonight(at that point it was 24hr since last dose of half bundle of D) and i was takeing Gaba all day bc i knew i wasnt having and opiates and strting sub. So when i got home i fell right asleep. Then i woke up at 12am ( about 30 hrs now)with horrible WD so i took 2mg of sub i waited loke an hour n half and i was still in pain; very bad RLS so I redosed another 2 mgs of sub. Now another hour has gone by and my legs still hurt a bit.... Not going to dose again.... I don't want to go above 4mgs. Also took some more GABA and muscle relaxers. Hoping sleep will come soon
very disappointed that jus 2mg wouldnt work. I don't know why it worked last week?!
 
So I started again tonight... I don't know what happened this time... I got home from work at 7pm tonight(at that point it was 24hr since last dose of half bundle of D) and i was takeing Gaba all day bc i knew i wasnt having and opiates and strting sub. So when i got home i fell right asleep. Then i woke up at 12am ( about 30 hrs now)with horrible WD so i took 2mg of sub i waited loke an hour n half and i was still in pain; very bad RLS so I redosed another 2 mgs of sub. Now another hour has gone by and my legs still hurt a bit.... Not going to dose again.... I don't want to go above 4mgs. Also took some more GABA and muscle relaxers. Hoping sleep will come soon very disappointed that jus 2mg wouldnt work. I don't know why it worked last week?!

One thing I have learned, is that no matter how hard you try, how many stories you read, and how many people you talk to, you just cannot predict the results of combining chemistry and individual biology with 100% accuracy. There are way too many variables. This thread is a great example. One person says he can taper off suboxone perfectly fine, another says there is no possible way to avoid suboxone withdrawal regardless of the taper and jumping off point. One time low dose suboxone works, another it doesn't. Furthermore, as has been discussed in a variety of threads, your body learns, changes, and adapts...unfortunately sometimes in ways that we would prefer it doesn't (e.g. addiction and worsening WD). We can make our best guesses in terms of how our bodies with react, but life laughs at our attempt to control it.

Also, as promised, I want to give a final conclusion with regards to my suboxone experience. In the end, Suboxone did not work for me this go-round. Now, let me say, I am in no way talking down about Suboxone, as obviously it has proved to help a lot of people, and despite the ultimate failure to provide the relief I was searching for, it did add some value nonetheless. For example, it gave me enough time to prevent relapse to get a clear head and gain some valuable insight regarding my situation, how I got into it, how deep I really was, and how much I really do want to get out. However, I also feel I experienced some atypical adverse reactions to the drug.

At first, I couldn't differentiate between the cause of symptoms I was having, as I didn't know if they were from jumping off from such a high dose of oxy, if there were issues with my DT due to going into PW, or if I was just reacting poorly with the suboxone. I now believe that at a minimum, I was having adverse reactions to the suboxone since I would wake up with cold sweats and leg pain, take the suboxone, which would fix the cold sweats and pain, but then an hour or two later get headache, abdomen pain, fatigue, loss of appetite, and later insomnia. Now, keep in mind it is very likely that indeed it is a combination of all three, and some of these symptoms are residual issues from the initial Oxy DT that are just not fully covered up by the amount of suboxone I used, or due to the quickly tapering; however, the fact that I would have symptom set A prior to taking it, and then an hour or two after taking it get symptom set B, leaves me confident that my reaction to suboxone was at least part to blame. That said, when I do it all over again, I may consider trying it on a more limited short-term (<6 days) low-dose DT that some have been very successful with.

Ultimately I would rather have a quick and more intense DT than a long and protracted one. Therefore, I ended up going back on a short action full agonist yesterday evening, and intend to stay on such for at least the next 3 to 4 weeks. My DT experience has allowed me to significantly decrease my tolerance, and while I am letting my body git rid of this longer-term high-affinity opiod, I am going to continue to further taper my dose down. Assuming I am successful with a good taper, I will either go CT with common DT "recipes," or possibly use lose doses of suboxone for a short time period as mentioned previously. My back up plan, worse case scenario, should my habit revert back to what it was, I will explore the methadone option if CT is absolutely not tolerable / feasible given life circumstances.

I also want to give some very much deserved credit to both BL and the BL community. I owe a LOT to those who have been gracious enough to share their knowledge, advice, and constructive feedback. These past 16 days (wow) have really opened my eyes on a lot of different levels. I feel much more aware of my issue, why I fell into it, how deep I got, how it impacts my future, as well as what I am going to do about it. Ironically, although I have been pretty miserable during this time frame, I at least reminded myself of who I was prior to being constantly numbed by the opiates, and oddly enough realized I don't even like the feel of the full agonist as much as I thought I did - which sounds strange now that I type it out. Anyways, I feel this thread has been a success in my HR in numerous ways, including using suboxone correctly, providing a support network, as well as education for continuing reducing my dependency on opiates. I am in a better state both mentally and physically than I would have been otherwise.

That said, if there are any mods reading, I do feel my original objective has been accomplished, and am OK if you decide it is time to close this thread. Otherwise, I would be more than willing to continue to provide updates and discussing the topic with those who wish to join in. My hope is that my experience with going into PW and having adverse reactions to the suboxone will provide some insight into an experience that is not as common as either the short 6 day DTs, or 2month+ DTs stories that I mostly found.
 
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No, I think this is a good example of how buprenorphine's ceiling effect makes it inappropriate for some people(myself included, when I got on MMT before tapering down)

300-400mg oxy is a lot, no matter what anyone says, and in addition to any help you got, I think this shows the limitations of hype therapy.l, and inter-individual differences of course. Anyway, you know what I think... I find yours to be a good case study, no matter what!!!
 
Also, for HR sake, I wanted to provide some additional information in regards to dosing after a 16 day break, as well as still having bupe in my system. I don't think there can be enough information available regarding this given this is when the chance for OD is escalated.

If you recall, I was taking up to 440mg a day of extended release OC. The last three days of suboxone included a total of no more than 1mg, and the last day I dosed .5mg in the morning. I waited until roughly 11pm, and only took 15mg of instant release OC, and it was plenty for me to feel OK! I was not nodding hard, nor was that my intention, but I felt good (aside from a bit depressed that I wasn't able to accomplish my original goal). The entire second day I only took 90mg, a huge drop from the 440mg, no more than 25mg at a time, and even had some decent nods. This may not be the same for everyone, but just want to emphasize to START LOW, you can always increase. Since I already had some receptors activated by the residual bupe, I wanted to reactivate the fewest possible, especially since I plan on tapering over the next month before doing it all over again.
 
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