neurology question regarding seretonin loss and MDMA

[Le Junk]

I have some background in chemistry, but not so much biology. And when it comes to neurology, I have a huge question regarding seretonin loss and excessive MDMA use.

After 25 years of use now, I've noticed that nearly all of the majic is gone. However, I do notice that when taking lab tested, pure MDMA, that I will experience that old school type of rolling, but it's short lasting (maybe 15-20 minutes at best), and then I'll go into an almost retarded type of mode.

In going with what I've always thought as a tolerance, I take more nowdays than I used too, but in turn, feel less. I've done alot of thinking about this, and since I have no background in medical science, thought I'd pose the question to someone who may have the answer.

For example, let's assume you've never done ecstasy before. Your seretonin block is as big as it will ever be. At this point, it is recommended that you take 120 mg.s of MDMA to manipulate all of your seretonin and acheive the true MDMA high. It take's quite awhile for all of your seretonin to replenish itself, but yet the very next week you hit it again before it's fully replenished. So, let's assume your original seretonin block is now back to 50% of it's original size. Do you still need that 120 mg.s of MDMA this time, or is less required? I have always heard and thought that I was supposedly building up a tolerance, but wouldn't this scenerio present more of the exact opposite. Logic would seem to dictate that if your seretonin level is only at 50% of it's full size, that only 60 mg.s of MDMA would be required to acheive the true MDMA high. Logic would also seem to dictate that taking more than 120 mg.s would push the user into more of a state of overkill, or seretonin syndrome.

I'm wondering if the fact that I'm taking more nowdays than ever before, yet feeling less, and then retarded is something more along the lines of seretonin syndrome. Does this make any sense at all? I'm sober right now, so I have no excuse if this is completely idiotic, but is this a possibility. In my situation, is less possibly more? The next time I do E I will be experimenting with this proposition. Instead of 3 then 2, I'm going 2 then 1. Anyone?

Le Junk

 

[Chicago66]

With 50% less serotonin, wouldnt it make sense that no matter how much you took, you would only feel half the roll you did with 100%?

 

[Le Junk]

With 50% less serotonin, wouldnt it make sense that no matter how much you took, you would only feel half the roll you did with 100%?

Interesting angle. Kinda like the doing it back to back nights theory. I'm just afraid that after beating the hell out of my seretonin for nearly 25 years now, that it most likely will never return to 100% of it's original size. Therefore, is that the reason I'm doomed from the majic? If so, that really sucks along with that's kinda scary, huh?

Le Junk

 

[Chicago66]

Interesting angle. Kinda like the doing it back to back nights theory. I'm just afraid that after beating the hell out of my seretonin for nearly 25 years now, that it most likely will never return to 100% of it's original size. Therefore, is that the reason I'm doomed from the majic? If so, that really sucks along with that's kinda scary, huh?

Le Junk

Yeah I would hate to never be able to roll again!
I think I read somewhere though that after like 8 years of no use it gets back to (or pretty close to) normal.
Unfortunately, that's not a break I think I will ever be able to take.

Whats the longest break you've taken from serotonin altering drugs before having pure MDxx?

 

[Le Junk]

Yeah I would hate to never be able to roll again!
I think I read somewhere though that after like 8 years of no use it gets back to (or pretty close to) normal.
Unfortunately, that's not a break I think I will ever be able to take.

Whats the longest break you've taken from serotonin altering drugs before having pure MDxx?

3 months max. 3000 total hits + in my lifetime.................

Le Junk

 

[MazDan]

I think this will best be answered over in Advanced drug discussion so Im shooting it over there and will be following its progress with interest.

 

[Le Junk]

I think this will best be answered over in Advanced drug discussion so Im shooting it over there and will be following its progress with interest.

Ah, good call Mazdan. Oh, and by the way, I'm actually testing the less is more theory as we speak! I'll keep you posted. But so far, I think my hypothesis might just be correct afterall. Well I'll be damn!

Le Junk

 

[Chicago66]

Ah, good call Mazdan. Oh, and by the way, I'm actually testing the less is more theory as we speak! I'll keep you posted. But so far, I think my hypothesis might just be correct afterall. Well I'll be damn!

Le Junk

If this works.....you might have just saved me a lot of money:D

 

[nuke]

The damage you've done to your serotonergic system is probably permanent. Tryptophan hydroxylase tends to recover after a while (4-6 weeks), and SERT seems to come back after a while too, though serotonin levels in the brain never seem to return to quite the same (or so it seems from smaller order mammals). This is probably from damage to the axons and/or the destruction of the serotonin storage vesicles

Additionally, the serotonergic system handles the damage kind of strangely; the neurons can sort of regenerate, but not in a completely correct way.

MDMA neurotoxicity is a very complex thing, and the loss of magic sort of effect is probably an adaption of the mind to MDMA as well as damage to the serotonin system.

 

[Le Junk]

The damage you've done to your serotonergic system is probably permanent. Tryptophan hydroxylase tends to recover after a while (4-6 weeks), and SERT seems to come back after a while too, though serotonin levels in the brain never seem to return to quite the same (or so it seems from smaller order mammals). This is probably from damage to the axons and/or the destruction of the serotonin storage vesicles

Additionally, the serotonergic system handles the damage kind of strangely; the neurons can sort of regenerate, but not in a completely correct way.

MDMA neurotoxicity is a very complex thing, and the loss of magic sort of effect is probably an adaption of the mind to MDMA as well as damage to the serotonin system.

That all sounds very promising and encouraging! I asked for true answers, and that's apparentely just what I got. Thank you.

I certainly wasn't expecting to hear anything positive about my situation anyway, so I was already prepared for the worst.

Now, on an actual positive note. I did drop my usual E lineup of three out of the shoot, followed an hour and a half later by 2 more, and substituted the 2 and then 1 theory. Well blow me down, it freakin' worked! And it worked really well! I actually had more fun on a lower dose of E last night, than I've had on E in probably over 5 years now. No retardedness, no scketched out feeling, or stomach pains etc. It actually turned out to be the perfect night with the perfect buzz.

I think my theory of less is more for those that have continually over abused the drug MDMA, works great! I'm going to do a few more follow-ups before I post a thread on th results, but from my first experience last night, I'll have to say the improvement was ten fold.

I'll keep you guys posted. However, in the meantime if anyone else fits my similiar scenerio, then may I suggest you also try it next time and see just how much better it is with less vs. more. Then please post your results or opinions in this thread afterwards. Plus, just think of the savings.

Le Junk

 

[Le Junk]

If this works.....you might have just saved me a lot of money:D

Good morning! Welp, the jury is in. I'll tell ya' what, I might not be able to save you any money on your car insurance, but I can sure save you up to 50% on any future bean purchases! IT FREAKIN' WORKED PERFECTLY, BRO! Holy crap, I blew up on just two blue LV's, more than I have in probably the last 5 years. I dropped a third and final pill an hour and a half after my first two and blew the fuck up for 5-6 good, strong hours total. No retardedness, no sketchyness, just pure bliss. Reminded me that I must still have some of my brain intact afterall. Less is more for longtime or excessive users. I repeat, less is more!

Le Junk

 

[kidamnesiac]

and of course, now that the magic is back, you will beat it to the ground again until it is time to search for a new reunion. reinforcing drugs are like bad sexual relationships, eh?

never underestimate the effects of set and setting, despite what is talked about in this room.

some good advice? roll less than 5 times a year for someone of your disposition. i cant imagine what 3000 pills have done to your brain.

 

[Le Junk]

i cant imagine what 3000 pills have done to your brain.

Well my guess would be it's not good..............

Le Junk

 

[yellodolphin]

thank you le junk for clearing my worries up. so you still roll after 3000 pills.

Ive done maybe 50 times ecstasy. But i want to be able to do it for my entire lifetime. i was worried i would lose the magic soon but i guess i wont after all. I dont plan on doing it more then twice in a year from now on. I use ecstasy theraputically and therefore want to be able to use it whenever i need to gain perspective and open up.

le junk why dont you take longer breaks. if you give your serotonin system a chance to recover even more you will roll better. i guess with someone like you though, using mdma that many times your body has adapted to it and has learned to recover from it.

 

[Jamshyd]

thank you le junk for clearing my worries up. so you still roll after 3000 pills.

This means nothing. First, you are not Le Junk, and might die after only 100 pills. Second, le junk may have been getting pills with very low doses. A "pill" is really not a measurement when it comes to Ecstasy.

I hope you don't take Le Junk's success as a green light to abuse E. Le Junk's case is certainly an exception to an age-old rule.

 

[Le Junk]

This means nothing. First, you are not Le Junk, and might die after only 100 pills. Second, le junk may have been getting pills with very low doses. A "pill" is really not a measurement when it comes to Ecstasy.

I hope you don't take Le Junk's success as a green light to abuse E. Le Junk's case is certainly an exception to an age-old rule.

That's exactly correct. So please don't look at my 3000 plus pills as a goal or anything, but rather just the stupidity behind the whole process........

Le Junk

 

[yellodolphin]

This means nothing. First, you are not Le Junk, and might die after only 100 pills. Second, le junk may have been getting pills with very low doses. A "pill" is really not a measurement when it comes to Ecstasy.

I hope you don't take Le Junk's success as a green light to abuse E. Le Junk's case is certainly an exception to an age-old rule.

did u read my post??

I stated i dont do e more then twice per year. I have not done it in over a year. I am not a regular user of ecstasy and i dont use it recreationally.

My surprise at le junk using so much and still rolling simply eased my worry because--- im trying to maintain LIMITED use of ecstasy but for an extended period of time. like i said I use ecstasy for its theraputic quality. My goal is to use it every few years when i need it for theraputic purposes. im not going to change my pattern of use because le junk reports his extremely heavy ecstasy use. i was just recently thinking that i hope to be able to use this tool say 10 or 20 years from now and still benefit from it. i think using more then twice a year is too much for myself and thats not gonna change because of someone else.

Im just taken a back because im one of those people that has self control with this drug. I know the difference between use and abuse and i am very responsible and strict with my use of ecstasy. Its funny you say to this to me because actually i believe the rightful place of ecstasy is for therapy not simply for pleasure.

 

[Jamshyd]

Please don't take my post as a direct assault at you.

This is a harm-reduction board, and it is only correct to point out what I did. Sure, you may be responsible, but your post might inspire someone who is not as responsible to do something stupid.

 

[nuke]

My surprise at le junk using so much and still rolling simply eased my worry because--- im trying to maintain LIMITED use of ecstasy but for an extended period of time.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry, I've known a few people who've gone over the 1000+ pills mark and can still roll.

 

[5-HT2]

The damage you've done to your serotonergic system is probably permanent. Tryptophan hydroxylase tends to recover after a while (4-6 weeks), and SERT seems to come back after a while too, though serotonin levels in the brain never seem to return to quite the same (or so it seems from smaller order mammals). This is probably from damage to the axons and/or the destruction of the serotonin storage vesicles

Additionally, the serotonergic system handles the damage kind of strangely; the neurons can sort of regenerate, but not in a completely correct way.

MDMA neurotoxicity is a very complex thing, and the loss of magic sort of effect is probably an adaption of the mind to MDMA as well as damage to the serotonin system.

It is questionable whether the doses used in animal studies scale well to common recreational doses used by humans. Studies in humans are very difficult to interpret because of the indirect methods used, and the inconsistency of results between different studies. Therefore, I think that assuming that one has damaged serotonin neurons, or permanently decreased levels of brain serotonin, is jumping to conclusions. However, I think it is safe to assume that the brain undergoes some type of long-term plasticity as a result of massive ecstasy use.