Nested Encapsulation of 4-Substituted Tryptamines

[Phaxius]

So I had an idea regarding the encapsulation of partial doses of 4-subbed tryptamines into multiple capsules of varying sizes, then nesting them into each other like a russian doll before ingesting it. The point of this is to create a slight time release effect to make the transition from sobriety to psychedellia more smooth (I am one of those who gets the motion sickness effect from coming up fast on these things). Gelatin capsules are said to mostly dissolve after about 5 minutes in the stomach (which of course varies depending on stomach contents, etc.), so if one was to divide a full dose between 4 or 5 capsules and nest them in this manner, it seems logical that the total amount would take longer to come to full effect. This may kind of blunt the peak a bit compared to taking it all at once, but in the process make the transition more smooth. Kind of hard to say I guess. Another utility of this idea regards mixtures of 4-sub t's that come on at different rates (e.g., 4-aco-dmt generally takes longer to come on than 4-ho-met or 4-ho-mipt for me). If one was to put the 4-aco-dmt in the outer capsule, for example, and then put 4-ho-met two or three capsules deeper then it would give the 4-aco-dmt a bit of a head start on absorption before introducing the 4-ho-met into the system. Eventually I shall test these sorts of scenarios, but in the meantime think it would be interesting to hear the community's thoughts on this sort of idea.

 

[Felonious Monk]

Seems logical, I'd like to hear how it works. Taking an antacid (just Tums or something like Prilosec) beforehand might help slow the break-up of the gelatin capsules as well.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I have tried this with MDMA and noticed no effect.
Think of it this way, what is the time difference between the onset of a gel cap and a parachute?
Ten minutes MAYBE, I personally have noticed no time difference.
The time it takes to hit you is likely just the time it takes for enough of the drug to be present in your system to begin taking effect.
I assumed that gel capsules dissolved nearly instantly in your stomach, I mean it does have a pH of around 2

 

[Phaxius]

Found a link where someone else had this idea for use with supplements: http://herbs.mxf.yuku.com/topic/392...-release-capsules-e-capsule-caps#.UuVxWsvpqSM

It says the gelatin capules typically take 5-10 minutes, whereas the vegetarian cellulose ones take 20-60 minutes, and usually dissolve in the intestines. So this adds a new vector to the concept as well, especially in terms of combo dosing. 4-aco-dmt usually takes me about 45 minutes to an hour to start taking effect, and 4-ho-met about 15-20 minutes. So if One was to put the 4-aco-dmt in the outer capsule (gelatin), and the 4-ho-met into the inner capsule (cellulose) then it seems like they might both start coming on around the same time. Another possibility too would be to put the initial dose in an outer gelatin capsule, then a booster dose nested in a few cellulose capsules so they kick in later, thus extending the experience without having to redose. Hmm...definitely going to experiment with this as time permits

 

[psood0nym]

If you can, test it with some diluted hydrochloric acid (if you have a pool it's sold as cleaner) to simulate stomach acid. But if all you're concerned with is the smoothness of the onset it's of course far more convenient and more of a sure thing to just dissolve your dose in a drink you down over how ever much time you want to slow it down by. Simply splitting your dose up into separately swallowed capsules would also have the same effect while taking out the uncertainty of the nesting proposal.

 

[Phaxius]

True, and I have used that method before with some success (I usually drink it too fast to make much of a difference -.-). Part of the reason as well to take the nested capsule approach instead is due to my most common trip partner having an aversion to the slightest bitter flavor in a drink as well as having to swallow a ton of capsules to get the same offset dosage effect.

Encapsulation does make the onset rather unpredictable at times for sure...one time I took some 4-ho-mipt, and it took 4 hours before it even started kicking in, which I attribute mostly to my stomach contents at the time.

I do like the idea of simulating stomach acid in a dissolution test. I wish I still had my ph meter, as it would make testing dissolution at a variety of ph levels (ah well, got test strips anyhow). There are many factors that play into this in the digestive system that would throw off the results, but it would give a better idea of how useful this might be in practice.

 

[Solipsis]

You can mix your drug with cellulose powder and put it in a capsule. This will turn into a sticky ball in your stomach that is digested slowly, depending on the size even 8 hours or so.

The idea is to create a matrix / mass that is slowly digested. If you want an extended onset but a comeup and experience that is about normal the way would be to only make such a matrix as the outer shell only. When the drug is mixed into the matrix it is released as slowly as the matrix is digested which does not shorten the onset at all but does dilate all other kinetic features.
To only make a time-release shell I would combine the capsule nesting idea with cellulose. I imagine you can cut the cellulose with an inert powder to make it less cohesive and more digestible. To make the shell I would put the drug in a small capsule and put that capsule in a larger capsule which you fill up with cellulose. The only issue is how the hell are you going to make sure they stay centered instead of all capsules touching on one end - because of gravity alone. ?

Certain types of fat may also be used but I don't have a recipe for you and you need edible purified fats of course.

 

[pupnik]

sounds really gross, but it really might work

 

[Solipsis]

Just don't try to use styrofoam to make polystirex drugs (e.g. DXM polystirex a.k.a. trippy cough syrup)

 

[Phaxius]

Found a scholarly article regarding disintegration of various types of capsules that probably would have more reliable data than I could produce with a homegrown test: http://cpb.pharm.or.jp/cpb/200007/C07_0951.pdf?origin=publication_detail

As for mixtures to alter absorption rate, very interesting idea. As far as creating a time release shell using a cellulose matrix and keeping the inner capsule centered, perhaps calendula or carnauba wax mixed with the cellulose might give it enough cohesion to keep the inner capsule from shifting too much? Another possibility might be polyethylene glycol. Not sure really, not incredibly well versed at this point when it comes to drug delivery systems.