Need serious help for this big mess ive created - loperamide withdrawal

[truvision]

Okay so the mess Ive created began from a job where the people were more like tyrants than co-workers. I have terrible anxiety around people and couldn’t take it anymore. The problem is that the pharmaceuticals whack me out but the herbs are too weak. Except for one herb I knew of... Kratom. Well, this time I had gotten desperate and succumbed to what I knew it could provide. I kind of knew better though considering my pretty serious past addiction to opiates but I also reasoned to myself that is was a “natural herb” and so that was okay so I got some.I knew I was playing with fire, however I couldn’t help it. The kratom worked and I loved it. I reasoned that I could stay on it forever until I realized I couldn’t sleep AT ALL on it. It didn’t matter how much of it or when I took it, I could NOT sleep on it.

I would just lay awake with a pulsing, pounding heart and an irritated nervous system so I knew this was also going to be a no go, although I tried to make it work I really did. So after taking it for just for NINE days total I quit only to encounter for me at least, some pretty terrible withdrawals. I mean not quite as bad as some others but a different kind of misery, much more extreme than I had heard of others having.Well,I couldn’t go through withdrawal at this internship, I just couldn’t so I knew about Immodium helping opiate withdrawals so I began on a loperamide taper.

I found that it took about 12 of them to work. What I didn’t realize however was the long half life of loperamide and began tapering by taking it every day. When I tried to stop it was bad. So I thought I needed to taper slower. Then I realized that because of that long half life because had been taking it every day I was actually increasing my dose and so I immediately dropped back to every other day.That was working for a while until it caught up with me (after a few days) and I suddenly started going through withdrawal on the loperamide because I didn’t really know what my true comfort dose was with all the half lives and inconsistent way that I took them. I had no idea what my body had gotten used to so I had to guess and just keep taking it till the withdrawals went away.

I also had some baclofen lying around and had begun taking that in hopes of helping me off the Immodium (not realizing that was quite possibly an even bigger beast than opiates in the long run).

Well, long story short (yea right trying to make it short, sorry) I don’t know why but my doses are not holding me through every other day with the Immodium and they are hardly even holding me through ONE day. Somehow I needed to go up to about 21 of the things to even begin to stave off withdrawals almost every day and it seems to be increasing or something because its just not holding me at all.I know Ive went seriously wrong somewhere. I have tried to taper since but have found myself basically feeling withdrawal ALL THE TIME NOW.

To make matters worse, I think that the baclofen might be causing me more problems. I have been having some wild hallucinations and insomnia but I’ve only been taking the baclofen off and on for about a month and a half and then consistently for about two weeks but still know that I cannot just drop off of that. Just reading the withdrawal effects from baclofen made me fall to my knees and beg for God to just let me off of this and I will NEVER,,,, well we all know how that goes. But it’s the loperamide that is truly driving me NUTS.

Let me tell anyone that thinks there is no withdrawal from lope.. it is serious and it is HARDCORE. I’ve now been stuck on the stuff for three weeks and let me tell you the withdrawal is NIGHTMARISH. My skin goes on fire and then I’m freezing and I swear I’m hallucinating from something. But except for the anxiety about my situation, the withdrawal is not a mental one but it is a very physically horrific body anxiety; I don’t even know how to describe it. I would MUCH rather come off of lortab than this stuff anyday! At least I know how to manage coming off of lortab but I can’t even get stable on this loperamide. I want off of it and I want off of it NOW.


So here’s my theory.. after all this if someone could tell me makes ANY sense or just to make sure that its not me being desperate and thinking stupid again.. but withdrawal from lope can be 20 days! And I can tell you I can’t even deal with it for ANY length of time. But lortab is only about five days and I know I could do that.

Wouldn’t it make sense for me to taper onto a shorter acting opiate like lortab for fifteen or so days, stay on the baclofen and then somehow get hold of some Lyrica and then use that to come off of the Lortab? I could then eventually use that as well to come off of the Baclofen if I wanted to as well, correct? I have done extensive research and there aren’t many things that I can take that will sub in for the two of those without also causing me to dig my hole even deeper.


But I’m really not just saying this, and trust me I haven’t been the first to say this either but loperamide withdrawals in a way seems to be worse than heroin withdrawals were. Its just this steady stream of raging pulsing hot terror and body anxiety and I COULD NOT go through that for a month, no way. I will NEVER touch loperamide again, not even for diarrhea (of course I know this is also due to the amount of time I’ve been on it and how it’s gotten so out of hand). Obviously, if I get out of this one I think I should just stick to the herbs,, , other than kratom that is. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Sorry this post was so very long but like I said it’s just a big mess I’ve created …. but please try not to make fun of me.):

 

[Johnsonville]

To be honest before reading this thread I would have told you the same thing the doc did, insofar as withdrawals from lope. I would expect for lope w/ds to have SERIOUS diarrhea associated with them and perhaps some physical side-effects but nothing compared to what you are describing. Anyway though, that is neither here nor there. My recommendation would be for you to switch over to Poppy Seed Tea for several days (until the lope and perhaps the Bac, has cleared your system) and then taper down from the tea.

The reason I say this is because PST is basically the equivalent of a long acting opioid that would definitely protect you from lope w/ds. It should protect you from bac withdrawals too because of the opioid’s ability to at least decrease muscle spasms, etc associated with a rebound affect from stopping baclofen. Let me be clear though, I don't know much about Baclofen or its MOA, so take my recommendation in regards to that with a grain of salt.

The only thing, however, is that it is important to know that PST contains morphine (in varying amounts depending on brand of seeds used) as well as codeine as well as a litany of other alkaloids SOOO you could be switching one addiction for another. I do feel though that if you do not use the PST for the high but just as an answer for withdrawals, you should be okay. Most importantly, if you do decide to take my advice, be sure to add in a regimen of DXM (otc cough suppressant that is an NMDA antagonist). That will prevent tolerance and sensitization to the effects of PST and help in your final taper off of the tea.

I wish you the best in defeating the beast that is addiction. I hope this helps.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Hi truvision, sorry to hear what you're going through . For some people loperamide is more dependence-causing than for others but there is no reason for people to think it isn't dependence-causing, especially when you're taking way higher doses than one would use for diarrhea relief. Even on the package it says not to take it for more than a few days. When you take huge doses or potentiate it, a larger amount stays in your brain, and some people may also naturally have less of the protein that normally removes much of the loperamide from the brain. Even if/when brain levels are relatively low, it is still binding to the other opioid receptors in the body.

I added "loperamide withdrawal" to your thread title so that people will have a better idea of what your thread is about and be more likely to reply. Also, I am known for my extremely long posts but even for me your post is really long, and not written in a way that makes it easy for someone to get the main points without reading the entire thing, so that might make it harder for you to get many replies.

Here are some threads for you to check out:
Actually addicted to Loperamide
The Opioid Withdrawal Megathread and FAQ

Also I disagree with switching to poppy seed tea, that would be just as hard to get off and can be hard to taper because it is so inconsistant. I would try to gradually taper the loperamide and take some non-opioid meds and supplements to help.

 

[RobotRipping]

yeah do not switch to poppy seed tea; that is a huge step backwards.

I fell into a very similar situation, sort of anyway. I switched from poppy seed tea to kratom to lope and when i quit lope i definitely noticed some issues, most of which i can deal with, some not though. During this time i also acquired a benzo habit. I get pretty bad symptoms when i take lower doses of benzos and do not take any opioid/ates for even a day. I did about 5-6 days of low dose etizolam and either no lope or some lope and it sucked. I still can't even sleep tonight after taking some codeine and more etizolam than usual.

I think the symptoms you describe sound more like gaba withdrawal (not too familiar with baclofen tho). I always feel crazy, have terrible physical anxiety, skin on fire, chills, stomach issues, nightmares, and a general feeling of craziness, not to mention the unbearable mental anxiety and panic attacks.

I can't even figure out what i'm withdrawing from at times, even if i up my benzo dose a shit load i still have RLS and a burning pain in my upper left arm, which for me is usually sign of a panic attack. I did get some relief by using codeine and a stable dose of benzos. Codeine is pretty easy to taper with as it gives you some comfort, so you can suffer for 12-16 hours and sleep a bit without getting fucked up or dealing with the issues of a long half life. I mean just use it as needed and only as needed, for a break.

I'd actually recommend just taking kratom but using different strains. Some strains are very stimulating and others are rather sedating (bali, borneo red vein). I take the stimulating ones during the day and the sedating ones at night and i felt pretty well and slept fine. I ran out of kratom and already spent too much money on drugs to order any more so i went with the lope instead. Even a month and a half after quitting PST i still get fucking RLS, nightmares and chills/fever, stomach discomfort even if my benzo dose is high. IMO kratom is the best drug for social anxiety and to use at work. The side effects are much better but if you still can't sleep (i can never sleep and a high dose of bali makes me drowsy) then i guess it just isn't for you, in which case i'd do a codeine taper if possible, it's OTC here.

 

[truvision]

Thank you for all your replies.I am pretty sure that the PST might get me in more trouble but Ill def keep that in mind however if I get desperate.Since, codeine isnt legal OTC where Im at and dont know of anywhere to get that at least the best I can do is hydro as I know that I can come off of that with a little help.I have also thought of going back to kratom since I could have stupidly just went through three days of misery on that and been through it long before now.I might consider that as well again.

Only thing is no matter how much or what strains of the kratom I took I still couldnt sleep.Its weird, I've only heard one other person saying that but in my situation it might be worth it in the long run.Roboripping, yea Ive also wondered if at least some of this could also be coming from the Baclofen.Its odd but Baclofen has totally taken away my social anxiety but then I also have moments of panic that seem to break through from time to time as well.I thought maybe it had something to do with all the crap Im doing to my body but also considered it could be from the Baclofen.Ive been having this crazy nightmare the past three nights where I wake up and think Im dead and jump outta bed in a panic only to realize Im still alive and not incased in a tomb.Its not fun at all and from what Ive heard Baclofen can cause bad nightmares as well and I guess the burning skin too.Just that experience alone makes me want to get of of that ASAP too if that is where its coming from.

Swimmingdancer, hhe yea your right THAT was a post that was entirely TOO long.I think Im going to try to edit it since when going back to re-read it even I was tired by the end of it! Im gonna cut it down to get more to the point.

But yea, for me loperamide has officially been one of the worst withdrawals Ive personally ever felt and whatever Ive got to do to get off this crap for me is gonna feel and be more manageable than it has been. It hard for some people to believe that you can get something OTC thats as strong as it is but I so feel a heavy body load and all the hallmarks of a strong opiate high.. it might be just under the surface because its not fully crossing the BBB but for me its still there.Although my tolerance has since went up with it the first time I took I could def tell it would be strong stuff if taken on its own without what they coat it with to prevent it crossing the BBB .Because of that I think anything else I take now most likely Im for sure gonna have a huge tolerance.

So how long do you guys think I should stay on the hydro?15-20 days or so?

Okay Im going to go edit my post now and try to take it down if even just a little bit..

 

[truvision]

And oh yea, Roboripping,sorry to here about your situation as well. I know how bad it can be as yea half the time I dont know what Im withdrawaing from either..totally sucks your right!

 

[Pill2Chill]

But yep, loperamide is officially one of the worst withdrawals Ive personally ever felt and whatever Ive got to do to get off this crap for me is gonna feel and be more manageable than it. It hard for some people to believe that you can get something OTC thats as strong as it is but I so feel a heavy body load and all the hallmarks of a strong opiate high.. it might be just under the surface because of the P-glycoprotein but for me its still there.Although my tolerance has since went up with it the first time I took I could def tell it would be strong stuff if taken on its own without what they coat it with to prevent it crossing the BBB .Because of that I think anything else I take now Im for sure gonna have a huge tolerance.

So how long do you guys think I should stay on the hydro?15-20 days or so?

Okay Im going to go edit my post now and try to take it down if even just a little bit..

There is not 'coating' that prevents loperamide from crossing the BBB. When it is used for w/d it's used to activate other opiate receptors in the body and not in the brain to minimize physical discomfort.

Having said that, if you can't deal with lope w/d but you can deal with lortab w/d.. Then it's not much of a question right? Hop on lortab. From then on just taper as fast as you (relatively) comfortably can.

 

[truvision]

Thanks, yea now that I think about it your right isnt loperamide just an opiate that is just to big to cross the BBB but attatches to the other receptors such as in the gut?In all my reading about it I confused the part about GETTING loperamide to cross the BBB with a coating of polysorbate 80 and then somehow got that twisted if that makes any sense. Which hell, I wouldnt wanna do that anyways and cant imagine how bad it is for those to get off of it who try experimenting with quinine and such. This is bad enough for me at least. But I agree that its probably a no brainer as well with switching over to something more shorter acting. Now the question is aquiring enough to get my through.

 

[Pill2Chill]

In fact, loperamide does cross the BBB, but it's instantly pumped back out into non-CNS circulation by P-glycoprotein.

P-glycoprotein inhibitors could possibly render the CNS 'vulnerable' to mµ agonism by loperamide. I read up on that once and it sounds very complex. Nanoparticles of loperamide coated with polysorbate 80 could pass the BBB effectively (and stay there) and act as an analgesic. But it's pretty complex and does not sound worth it.

Hope that solves your questions and good luck weening of the lortabs!

 

[Swimmingdancer]

^Exactly. Loperamide does cross the BBB, just most of it gets transported back out of the brain by p-glycoprotein. If you take high doses of it more stays in the brain, or if you use a p-glycoprotein-inhibiting drug or food. Also some people might have lower natural levels of p-glycoprotein. Anyway, there are opioid receptors in places in your body other than your brain, so even if not much of it is in your brain it still binds to those receptors.

 

[truvision]

Thanks,you really sound like you know a lot about this. Yea, I actually think that some actually does cross the BBB on its own especially in high amounts.I def got a nice little mood lift from it.I read on another forum of someone taking it with zantac, tagamet and some soda water with quinine in it and they said that they got a decent high, but he was also kinda taking massive amounts of it.I feel sorry for him when he decides to stop.

Then again, I do tend to have a pretty bad withdrawal history so for some people it might not be as bad as Ive had it. I had some left over from an old script to help me through and already feel MUCH better although of course that's most likely because Im taking something that IS fully crossing the BBB now. I might even have to go back to the kratom briefly if I cant get enough to make it through.

Crap, how stupid of me.. I went in a damn circle all for nothing although I did learn from it I guess.If I would have just stuck with it Id be done now. But hey I know I'm probably not the first. Now I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I don't have another one of those nightmares tonight.. I even got a night light just in case!I know I sound like a real wimp but man kinda funny what drugs do to me and I just keep coming back for more. 8( Hey I probably should have thought about this beforehand but could someone tell me if maybe I should be using AFOAF instead from now on? Don't wanna cause trouble for myself or break forum rules if you know what I mean.

 

[Pill2Chill]

Crap, how stupid of me.. I went in a damn circle all for nothing although I did learn from it I guess.If I would have just stuck with it Id be done now. But hey I know I'm probably not the first. Now I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I don't have another one of those nightmares tonight.. I even got a night light just in case!I know I sound like a real wimp but man kinda funny what drugs do to me and I just keep coming back for more. 8(

You're not the first and definitely not the last. It's a good thing you've learned from the experience though. :D Good luck and hopefully you won't have any nightmares tonight.

Hey I probably should have thought about this beforehand but could someone tell me if maybe I should be using AFOAF instead from now on? Don't wanna cause trouble for myself or break forum rules if you know what I mean.

No, it's against the BLUA to use aliases like SWIM or AFOAF. We know it's you, as does everyone who reads this. Plus it's annoying to read.

 

[truvision]

That's very true. Every time I've read the SWIMS especially I found it to be kinda humorous and a bit annoying as well.So far so good,no nightmares last night.Seems I'm on the right path so far.Again, thanks for the advice!

One other note I forgot to add is that my tolerance really didn't go up as much as I thought it would have.In fact,the others seem to almost work even better now.I was taking small doses of DXM between 45-60 mg a day and magnesium to help keep my tolerance down.I don't know if that's what helped or not but who knows I suspect it might have if even just a little bit.

Alright if anyone gets back on here I have another question about this.Maybe I should make another thread cause this is kind of a different question but thought I whould just post first here. So Ive switched to hydro after the loperamide and its been about two days since I started taking them. For the most part Ive felt better and the hydro does seem to be working. The thing is I feel like Im starting to go through loperamide withdrawl again.Its under the surface and so far Im okay but Im having flashes of pulsing hot and cold skin again, runny nose and nausea. Im taking about 3 10's a day so far and like I said above was taking at least 21 lope a day sometimes every day for a while for about three weeks.Could I really still be withdrawing from loperamide even through the hydro or am I just going nuts here?

 

[Swimmingdancer]

So Ive switched to hydro after the loperamide and its been about two days since I started taking them. For the most part Ive felt better and the hydro does seem to be working. The thing is I feel like Im starting to go through loperamide withdrawl again.Its under the surface and so far Im okay but Im having flashes of pulsing hot and cold skin again, runny nose and nausea. Im taking about 3 10's a day so far and like I said above was taking at least 21 lope a day sometimes every day for a while for about three weeks.Could I really still be withdrawing from loperamide even through the hydro or am I just going nuts here?

Either is possible. Different people react to both loperamide and hydrocodone in different ways, but conditioning is also a big factor in opioid withdrawal, like basically your brain/body gets so used to being in withdrawal it starts feeling that way even when it theoretically "shouldn't". Hydrocodone doesn't do much at all for me though and different opioids are slightly different, so it's possible that one wouldn't be able to cover the other.

 

[pally pete]

I may be totally off track here.

But have you considered using DHC (Dihydrocodeine) to taper?

Im currently using it to taper from huge amounts of Oxycodone and it seems to be working very well.

My only problem is my willpower not to binge on the DHC to get high.

Good luck.

 

[Pill2Chill]

Alright if anyone gets back on here I have another question about this.Maybe I should make another thread cause this is kind of a different question but thought I whould just post first here. So Ive switched to hydro after the loperamide and its been about two days since I started taking them. For the most part Ive felt better and the hydro does seem to be working. The thing is I feel like Im starting to go through loperamide withdrawl again.Its under the surface and so far Im okay but Im having flashes of pulsing hot and cold skin again, runny nose and nausea. Im taking about 3 10's a day so far and like I said above was taking at least 21 lope a day sometimes every day for a while for about three weeks.Could I really still be withdrawing from loperamide even through the hydro or am I just going nuts here?

The hot flashes could very well be a w/d symptom. But I'm sure that the lortabs are covering alot of the other symptoms, right? If this is bearable, just keep doing what you're doing mate. You'll be stable on the hydro soon enough. Keep going!

 

[truvision]

Swimmingdancer, thanks I really hope its conditioning but Im pretty for certain its the second option and is withdrawal especially since it seems to be building every hour.The nausea and temperature fluctuations in my skin are def getting more intense.Man I really cant believe the hyrdo isnt totally taking it away though but I guess your right that one opiate might not be able to totally cover it up.

Pally, I wish I could aquire something a little stronger but dont have access to Dihydrocodone. I do have some Kratom coming in the mail just in case but would think if the tabs arent covering than the kratom would most likely be even weaker dont you all think? ( albeit MUCH better than nothing at all FOR SURE.) Then again, maybe not cause they might work on different opiate receptors or something.

Pill to Chill, yes thank God the tabs are covering alot so far, Im just afraid its gonna get worse is all cause this would probably only be about day one of the lope out of my system.I was always shocked at how quickly the loperamide withdrawal would get bad. With tabs it took like three days to hit the same peak but with lope its starts right on day one and builds from there.Cant imagine what day five or so would be like then. The nausea is freaking intense and I never got nausea coming off other opiates. Maybe it will take a couple days to adjust though.. hopefully!

If it stays like this I can handle it but since Im pretty sure this is withdrawals I would think its most likely gonna get worse. So heres my question.

Option number one would be to try and take more hydro IF I can even get enough.

And option number two would be and this is only if it gets unbearable to maybe half my dose of loperamide while on the tabs to say about 10 of them(or even maybe less like first trying about 6 of them) and then possibly taper from there. But I dont know if that would just be going backwards and making an even BIGGER mess since I seem to be really good at doing that.

Option number two however, is only if it gets REALLY bad though. Ill tell ya I dont know how anyone could come off this crap with out nothing. I can tell it would most likely be close to unbearable for me if I didnt have the tabs. Thanks again everyone for the help. If even its just a little support it helps. Opiate withdrawals have always kicked my butt harder than most so I might sound weaker than the average person but just trying to figure out the best way without screwing it up more. The tabs are definately helping though.. so far but dont know what the next few days are gonna be like.

 

[Pill2Chill]

Opiate W/D symptoms decrease over time after reaching their peak. Which by now should be the case. If you're having lope w/ds now they're probably already at full force. Since all of the lope is most likely out of your system by now, there's no reason for it getting any worse. Trust me it'll only get better from now on, not worse. Relax

/e:Loperamide: average 10.8 hours half-life.

Now I'm absolutely SURE it will only get better. Good luck and keep us updated on the hydro taper!

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Opiate W/D symptoms decrease over time, not increase.

What? that's not true. They start, then gradually get worse (how fast depends on the opioid), then peak (get to their worst point), then gradually get better. Even with heroin the first day is not the worst day - it usually peaks on around the 3rd day (depending on the person). With long-acting opioids like methadone it can take actually 1-2 weeks for the withdrawals to peak.

I'm not sure about loperamide, since lope withdrawal is not something common/widely known-about, and it's probably different for everyone, but I think I agree with you about the lope WDs (although I can't remember how long it's been since truvision stopped taking the lope?) but I just wanted to point out I didn't think it made sense to say opioid WDs don't increase over time.

The hydrocodone could have perhaps been sufficient at first when some lope was still in tru's system, as it could have a sort of additive effect, then once the lope's out of his/her system the hydro was no longer enough to mask the WDs completely. I have experienced this using one opioid to taper off another.


truvision - Another thing to consider though is the possibility of other health or mental health issues that feel similar to WD? Like things can show up that opioids were masking. Even conditioning is not something you can actually control so it doesn't make a huge difference whether or not it's primarily that (and conditioning plays a role in all WDs), the only thing you can really do is try to distract yourself, think positively and try to convince yourself it will get better soon. Don't assume it's going to get worse, that could be like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think it will get better. Try to stick with your hydrocodone taper and just use only enough to make things bearable. Stay strong

 

[Pill2Chill]

What? that's not true. They start, then gradually get worse (how fast depends on the opioid), then peak (get to their worst point), then gradually get better. Even with heroin the first day is not the worst day - it usually peaks on around the 3rd day (depending on the person). With long-acting opioids like methadone it can take actually 1-2 weeks for the withdrawals to peak.

Yeah you're right my bad. Thanks for clearing that up. I was just assuming the lope w/d would have reached its peak after 2 days and should be starting to decrease by now. I didn't keep opioids with long half-lives in mind either.

The peak of the w/d is reached when the drug has completely left the system, correct?

I also didn't know it took 3days for H to fully clear your system.

/edit: I edited my other post, is it correct like that?