Need advice with "mentally ill" friend.

yagecero

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
312
Hi guys,

I've never posted in TDS and this thread doesn't have so much to with me as it does with a close friend/housemate, so if it's not within the parameters of the forum, feel free to delete it, mods.

I'm finding it difficult to deal with my friend in general because no matter what he does he always uses the excuse that his "bi-polar" is responsible for his actions, and according to him, there is nothing that he can do to change this. I should add that this is his FIRM belief, along with another FIRM belief (which I also find difficult to entertain) that his condition is biological and for this reason he will always need medication and well, have this perpetual excuse for whenever he is out of line.

This general attitude has created a rift in my house, and I would like to know the best way to approach it. I've tried to talk about these issues in the past (when he suggested that I see someone because I "disregulate" too often - which is always just me making a conscious choice to do something outlandish), but when I questioned the situation it blew up in my face - there was a very strong I-don't-want-to-talk-about-my-medication tirade that suggested a punch in the face was coming my way if I continued to deconstruct his thought/action process.

So anyway, I'm wondering if anyone can give me advice on how to deal with this the next time that it comes up. I'm tired of hearing this excuse whenever he's called out on something, but I also don't want to truly "let rip" with what I think about the situation, because I don't want to hurt his feelings (even if he drives me freaking insane at times).

Thanks guys.
 
meds are the devil in disuise i'd advise him to come off them

Excercise, healthy eating and living reading, puzzles etc are all beneficial for me

and sometimes I know from personal experience anyway your friend might just want to be left alone, as I know that I find it very difficult living with anyone as little things get me pissed off but its mainly routine things if I cant listen to music while eating my breakfast coz my dads watching tv or something but it literally makes me feel insane.
 
meds are the devil in disuise i'd advise him to come off them

Excercise, healthy eating and living reading, puzzles etc are all beneficial for me

and sometimes I know from personal experience anyway your friend might just want to be left alone, as I know that I find it very difficult living with anyone as little things get me pissed off but its mainly routine things if I cant listen to music while eating my breakfast coz my dads watching tv or something but it literally makes me feel insane.

That's the thing - I totally agree that the meds are bad news. I've seen many a friend go from slightly perturbed (social anxiety, general depression) to relying entirely on ssri's (or in this case, snri's - effexor) and benzodiazepines (in this case after an alprazolam addiction - quetiapine). BUT, in this case, there is a STRONG belief that the medication is essential, and that there are no other avenues to explore as a means of recovery.

I have a firm interest in psychedelics and shamanism (I never take them recreationally - and have spent a great deal of time in the Amazon) and have suggested this as a means of finding the cause of his issues, but this was greeted with a condescending attitude in regard to my supposed misunderstanding of psychology (note: I have read far more psychological literature than him). The annoying thing for me is that he smokes pot daily and likes to use mushrooms recreationally (far more often than I use them for shamanic purposes) and will cite psychology like gospel unless of course it's in regard to the general consensus that weed and psychedelics are not the best substances for those suffering from mental illness, let alone those that suffer an "imbalance" and are on medication.

How the hell do I approach this?!?
 
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you two are coming from very different places with this, i cant imagine anything to be said, or any tactic that you probably havent tried or considered.



sounds like a holiday is in order, for one of you. you are going to have to settle this, and probably by letting him spin this out on his own.

if he is causing trouble, then saying it is his psych d/o, while taking the meds, and using, something isnt working right...you know what i am saying?

maybe find a time to bring a similar point up, un-abruptly or with out the chance of you seeming confrontational.
 
We now know that bipolar disorder DOES have a very strong biological basis. Your friend is correct in stating that he will forever have this disorder. This is a chronic illness for which there is no cure. Your friend must take medications in order to mitigate and control the symptoms of bipolar disorder until the day that he dies. I, myself, have been managing bipolar disorder for over a decade now and I consider myself to be well-informed on the subject. I do not come here too often to read posts and sometimes I forget to check for replies, so if you have any questions please PM me and I will get back to you as soon as I am able to.

When your friend lapses into bipolar depression, hypomania/mania, or dysphoric mania (a mixed state comprised of symptoms from both bipolar depression and mania), it is true that he has no control whatsoever over his actions and it is also true that he will likely have no idea at all just how sick he has gotten or how badly he is treating others around him. He won't know how nuts his behavior is at all. This is the worst thing about bipolar disorder, in my own opinion. Imagine being so sick that everyone else around you can clearly see that you have gone off the deep end while you are manic, but you (the person afflicted with the disorder) feel perfectly fine, feel better than ever, and have absolutely no insight into your symptoms. You cannot tell that you are sick, and as far as you are concerned, ALL of the crazy things popping into your mind are as true as 1+1=2 and everyone else around you is nuts for not being able to see this.

Your friend, quite fortunately, is incorrect that there is nothing that can be done to improve the quality of his life and to keep his symptoms at bay. I have been on Seroquel and Trileptal for over three years now and my psychiatrist considers me to be in full remission. It's almost like I don't have bipolar disorder at all, but I keep taking the meds because I know that I do so well only because of them. Your friend may need to try many different medications, as I have had to, before finding something that works, but effective treatment is entirely possible. Your friend should go to therapy on a regular basis, at least once monthly. He should get plenty of regular sleep, avoid excessive caffeine and alcohol consumption (better not to do them at all, really), and get regular exercise. He should eat a healthy diet as well. These things go a LONG way in the treatment of bipolar disorder. Your friend should stay the fuck away from drugs, even marijuana, as marijuana can be just as deadly to bipolar people as it can sometimes be helpful. Marijuana launched me into the worst manic/psychotic episode of my life after being my best friend for many years. If he insists on experimenting he should use very infrequently, avoid combining different drugs, and stick to very moderate doses. I'm not going to knock on someone who wants to experiment because I did it myself, but in the end it caused me more problems than it was worth really.

Your friend can totally change things around for himself but he has to man up and take responsibility for his mental and physical health.
 
if he is causing trouble, then saying it is his psych d/o, while taking the meds, and using, something isnt working right...you know what i am saying?

maybe find a time to bring a similar point up, un-abruptly or with out the chance of you seeming confrontational.

Thanks PIP, it's a tough one. It's particularly the use of cannabis/mushrooms that I find so concerning. I've tried my hardest to mitigate issues when they occur - maybe I should try giving up trying.



We now know that bipolar disorder DOES have a very strong biological basis. Your friend is correct in stating that he will forever have this disorder. This is a chronic illness for which there is no cure. Your friend must take medications in order to mitigate and control the symptoms of bipolar disorder until the day that he dies. I, myself, have been managing bipolar disorder for over a decade now and I consider myself to be well-informed on the subject. I do not come here too often to read posts and sometimes I forget to check for replies, so if you have any questions please PM me and I will get back to you as soon as I am able to.

I'm sorry, but I entirely disagree with this. I suffered from manic depression with schizoid symptoms for four years (a long time ago now) - refused to see anyone and healed myself. If I had seen a psychologist (as those around me begged) I would most likely find myself in a similar scenario in which I would believe that my condition is incurable. SSRI's in particular have been shown to be only slightly more effective than placebo in controlled studies: the power of a so-called expert telling you that they will help is more powerful than anything.

I'm fairly certain the damage caused by these mind drugs will come out in the near future.

There is a very large business surrounding this diagnosing for life.

When your friend lapses into bipolar depression, hypomania/mania, or dysphoric mania (a mixed state comprised of symptoms from both bipolar depression and mania), it is true that he has no control whatsoever over his actions and it is also true that he will likely have no idea at all just how sick he has gotten or how badly he is treating others around him. He won't know how nuts his behavior is at all. This is the worst thing about bipolar disorder, in my own opinion. Imagine being so sick that everyone else around you can clearly see that you have gone off the deep end while you are manic, but you (the person afflicted with the disorder) feel perfectly fine, feel better than ever, and have absolutely no insight into your symptoms. You cannot tell that you are sick, and as far as you are concerned, ALL of the crazy things popping into your mind are as true as 1+1=2 and everyone else around you is nuts for not being able to see this.

Your friend, quite fortunately, is incorrect that there is nothing that can be done to improve the quality of his life and to keep his symptoms at bay. I have been on Seroquel and Trileptal for over three years now and my psychiatrist considers me to be in full remission. It's almost like I don't have bipolar disorder at all, but I keep taking the meds because I know that I do so well only because of them. Your friend may need to try many different medications, as I have had to, before finding something that works, but effective treatment is entirely possible. Your friend should go to therapy on a regular basis, at least once monthly. He should get plenty of regular sleep, avoid excessive caffeine and alcohol consumption (better not to do them at all, really), and get regular exercise. He should eat a healthy diet as well. These things go a LONG way in the treatment of bipolar disorder. Your friend should stay the fuck away from drugs, even marijuana, as marijuana can be just as deadly to bipolar people as it can sometimes be helpful. Marijuana launched me into the worst manic/psychotic episode of my life after being my best friend for many years. If he insists on experimenting he should use very infrequently, avoid combining different drugs, and stick to very moderate doses. I'm not going to knock on someone who wants to experiment because I did it myself, but in the end it caused me more problems than it was worth really.

Your friend can totally change things around for himself but he has to man up and take responsibility for his mental and physical health.

I'm not denying that the medication can help people short-term, but there is not one shred of conclusive evidence to suggest that bi-polar has a biological cause. I'm thankful that you agree that things can be changed for the better - but I cannot see that happening with this particular individual based upon anything you have told me here.

Anyone else have some advice relating exactly how to deal with this individual? And I'm not after something from the DSM. Also this is not meant to turn into a debate about the merits of psychiatry and its propensity to diagnose and then hand-out prescriptions of powerfully addictive mind-drugs. I want general advice, NOT connected to a pseudo-scientific opinion.

For the record, I do believe that the therapeutic environment, as advocated by humanist psychologists like Carl Rogers is beneficial, but this person also feels that they don't need therapy, they just need to continue their regime of medication, which merely perpetuates the issue.

As for him not being in control of his actions: "He won't know how nuts his behavior is at all". No offence, but that's B.S.

I'd like to also add that he holds a full-time job and has been in a relationship for a long time, so I don't see his "illness" as being so debilitating from a societal perspective.
 
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I suffer from bipolar and I do agree that things are manageable (using this term loosely) without medication but there are a lot of people out there that benefit from the stability that medication provides. That said what your room mate is saying is more than likely bullshit, I've done many reprehensible things in my life and though I realise that some of my actions may have been influenced by my illness but the responsibility lies with me. I am talking very generally here but it sounds like your room mate is just doing dickish things and just blaming it on bipolar.

Unfortunately there really isn't much that you can do about it. You have to confront him about it. He'll probably tell you that you don't understand the pain and suffering or how hard it is, I do and it's no excuse. That doesn't mean you have to come down on him too hard just pull a, 'I know that it's hard but really this is starting to really bother me... I need you to understand that... etc.'

He sounds like a pretty good friend of yours so hopefully he'll understand, just share the ways in which it's effected you and "suggest" (be very careful with this bit, use a lot of tact) how he could improve.
 
I would stop being his friend. If he won't listen and this bothers you maybe the only way to make him see how big of a problem it is would be to distance your self. When he see's that its a big enough problem that hes going to loose his friend maybe he will be more willing to listen and change.

I went through a period of blaming my problems on disorders and mental problems and everything but what was really going on. Maybe I do have mental problems but I learned I could control it to a degree that I function just fine.

Does he use? If he has used these bi-polar meds for most of his life he may be stuck using them for ever, that happened to my brothers X but it sounds more like he is just childish and unwilling to except anything true. He will not change untill he has to until something happens or he is forced. You might just have to write him off as a loss. Maybe write him a letter explaining how you feel and tell him call me when you decide your ready to listen.
 
^^Thanks for the responses guys, especially Laughingheart - have you been diagnosed as having bipolar? I found your post really insightful, and entirely respect your point of view. If anyone else wants to chime in, I'd love to hear further opinions on the subject.
 
I was told I had it, I was told I had lots of things. Even if they are right I still manage to control it on my own but thats because I decided to control it. I had to want to get better. He sounds like he enjoys his sickness, that its who he is.
 
Thanks PIP, it's a tough one. It's particularly the use of cannabis/mushrooms that I find so concerning. I've tried my hardest to mitigate issues when they occur - maybe I should try giving up trying.





I'm sorry, but I entirely disagree with this. I suffered from manic depression with schizoid symptoms for four years (a long time ago now) - refused to see anyone and healed myself. If I had seen a psychologist (as those around me begged) I would most likely find myself in a similar scenario in which I would believe that my condition is incurable. SSRI's in particular have been shown to be only slightly more effective than placebo in controlled studies: the power of a so-called expert telling you that they will help is more powerful than anything.

I'm fairly certain the damage caused by these mind drugs will come out in the near future.

There is a very large business surrounding this diagnosing for life.



I'm not denying that the medication can help people short-term, but there is not one shred of conclusive evidence to suggest that bi-polar has a biological cause. I'm thankful that you agree that things can be changed for the better - but I cannot see that happening with this particular individual based upon anything you have told me here.

Anyone else have some advice relating exactly how to deal with this individual? And I'm not after something from the DSM. Also this is not meant to turn into a debate about the merits of psychiatry and its propensity to diagnose and then hand-out prescriptions of powerfully addictive mind-drugs. I want general advice, NOT connected to a pseudo-scientific opinion.

For the record, I do believe that the therapeutic environment, as advocated by humanist psychologists like Carl Rogers is beneficial, but this person also feels that they don't need therapy, they just need to continue their regime of medication, which merely perpetuates the issue.

As for him not being in control of his actions: "He won't know how nuts his behavior is at all". No offence, but that's B.S.

I'd like to also add that he holds a full-time job and has been in a relationship for a long time, so I don't see his "illness" as being so debilitating from a societal perspective.

I think that "so-called experts" who complete eight years of medical school, then several more years of residency can be considered trusted and authoritative sources on the treatment of mental illness. How do you believe that you could know better than they?

Bipolar disorder cannot be cured. Your beliefs are incorrect and go against the entire medical community and all verified knowledge of how bipolar disorder works. Bipolar disorder must be treated with the proper medications due to functional problems with the brain, both on a physical and chemical level.

It is possible that you do not have bipolar disorder, or, if you do, you are probably just going through an abnormally long period of euthymia, which is also known as 'normal functioning'. I fooled myself into thinking that I was not bipolar or that I had been misdiagnosed when I went off of my medications for four years and appeared to function just fine. After four years I lapsed into depression and then mania again. It is not uncommon for people with bipolar disorder to have extremely long periods of euthymia in which they appear to be perfectly healthy and absent of all observable symptoms.

You really should read some books about bipolar disorder and educate yourself before disseminating such blatantly false and misleading, dangerous information. There is no nice way to say this, but it is clear that you do not know what you are talking about and that you are severely misinformed on this topic. If I recommended you some good books about bipolar disorder would you try to read through them so you can become educated on the topic rather than remaining ignorant (Ignorant in the sense of not being educated or knowledgeable, not as an insult) of it?

If you truly have bipolar disorder and have been manic or hypomanic then you would know firsthand that you are not in control of your actions of thoughts during a manic episode.
 
meds are the devil in disuise i'd advise him to come off them

Excercise, healthy eating and living reading, puzzles etc are all beneficial for me

and sometimes I know from personal experience anyway your friend might just want to be left alone, as I know that I find it very difficult living with anyone as little things get me pissed off but its mainly routine things if I cant listen to music while eating my breakfast coz my dads watching tv or something but it literally makes me feel insane.

Do you have a psychiatric illness?
 
To the OP: my concern is that you may be forcing your own agenda (mental illness is not a real disorder, the use of psychedelics can "cure" mental illness, etc.) upon your friend. You should re-examine your motives.
 
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encouraging others to go off their medication is not the answer, nor is suggesting. that is the decision of the person taking the meds, and their Dr.

I´m not sure how I feel about this scenario. On the one hand, fits of rage, strange behaviour, anger or arguing can be symptoms of bipolar disorder, particularly the mnic stage. As can not be pulling your weight around the house, or spending all day in their room (depressed mood).

For some people, medication is not the answer. For some depressed people (myself included) benefited little from SSRIs. From my ableit limited knowledge of bi polar, medication is often necessary though. I am surprised that your friend who is diagnosed with bi polar is on an SNRI though. from my understanding this can cause a worsening of manic symptoms.

On the otherhand, having a mental illness (unless it is severly incompacitating or acute) should not be used as an excuse for doing nothing around the house or for being constantly aggressive. My girlfriends mother has bi polar, and though occassionally she can get a bit manic. on the whole she runs a successful bussiness and family. So bi polar need not stop a person from having a successful life.

As for the use of psychedlics for mental illness. I believe they have their place in that they can create some insight, but at the same time, not everyone will respond well nor may it cause lasting change to beliefs about the self. they can also cause a worsing of symptoms or trigger psychosis in succeptable people (of which someone with bi polar will have an increased risk of this). I also question alot of the claims made that psychedelics such as ayahuasca and mescaline are great for the healing of mental illness, which one often hears in south america. As far as I know this hasn´t really been tested empirically. And just because something has been used as a medicine for a very long time by certain Indigenous peoples does not mean its use is always (or even minimally) effective.

but this is just the skeptic scientist in me talking. I have had some good insightful experiences on psychedelics that have allowed me to break out of depressive thinking for a short time, and allow me to see what is important and what is not. I have also had said insights through cognitive behavioural therapy too.
 
. Your friend is correct in stating that he will forever have this disorder. This is a chronic illness for which there is no cure. Your friend must take medications in order to mitigate and control the symptoms of bipolar disorder until the day that he dies

This is important to note
 
I think it sounds like there are two issues here - him using his illness as an excuse for all his behaviour, and the belief that bipolar is biological and will always need medication. I'm actually not going to get involved here and express my views about the second part, and I don't think you should either - he is entitled to his views about his illness, especially as it is his illness, and a lot of people would agree with him. You are also entitled to your views, of course, and a lot of people would agree with you too. However, I really don't think that trying to impose your opinion about his illness is going to help the situation and if I was him, I'd be quite upset about that I think..

The first part, however, I think is more complicated. Mental illness can make you behave in ways that are difficult for others to handle. I know my depression made me selfish, angry, unreliable and generally a pain in the ass.. and without knowing exactly how he is behaving it is hard to say whether it is his illness or not!

Even if his behaviour is due to his illness, there is only so much that friends can handle, and if it is getting too much for you then that is understandable, especially if you are living with him 24/7. Perhaps he needs to be living in a different environment for a bit, with his family for example..

I think you need to sit down and have a calm talk with your friend - explain the impact his behaviour is having and how it is affecting you. If possible, try to avoid bringing up the biological vs non-biological debate and even whether his behavious is due to his illness or not - it will just make him defensive and angry and you won't change his opinions so it is fruitless. If I were you I would just explain how hard you are all finding it and that you think you need to come up with a solution together. Either that solution might be that he agrees to modifies his behaviour, or it may be that living with you all isn't the best option for him at this point in time

I think I might be biased as I have had mental illness myself, but it really can be hard when people think you are just being difficult on purpose when really it is your illness.. so sorry if my answer reflects that..

Either way, however, it sounds like the situation is really hard on you. Even if your friend's behaviour is due to his illness, if you feel that it is too much to handle then that is completely okay - there is only so much that we can cope with even from our friends. As I said, maybe he needs to be staying with family at the moment while things are so difficult..
 
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@ anyone that read my pre-edited post: I rewrote my post due to the realisation that I was merely perpetuating what I was explicitly trying to avoid - I really don't want this to degenerate into a debate that cannot be proven conclusively either way.

He sounds like he enjoys his sickness, that its who he is.

This really is a good description of how things are when an excuse is in order.

I think that "so-called experts" who complete eight years of medical school, then several more years of residency can be considered trusted and authoritative sources on the treatment of mental illness. How do you believe that you could know better than they?

Bipolar disorder cannot be cured. Your beliefs are incorrect and go against the entire medical community and all verified knowledge of how bipolar disorder works. Bipolar disorder must be treated with the proper medications due to functional problems with the brain, both on a physical and chemical level.

It is possible that you do not have bipolar disorder, or, if you do, you are probably just going through an abnormally long period of euthymia, which is also known as 'normal functioning'. I fooled myself into thinking that I was not bipolar or that I had been misdiagnosed when I went off of my medications for four years and appeared to function just fine. After four years I lapsed into depression and then mania again. It is not uncommon for people with bipolar disorder to have extremely long periods of euthymia in which they appear to be perfectly healthy and absent of all observable symptoms.

You really should read some books about bipolar disorder and educate yourself before disseminating such blatantly false and misleading, dangerous information. There is no nice way to say this, but it is clear that you do not know what you are talking about and that you are severely misinformed on this topic. If I recommended you some good books about bipolar disorder would you try to read through them so you can become educated on the topic rather than remaining ignorant (Ignorant in the sense of not being educated or knowledgeable, not as an insult) of it?

If you truly have bipolar disorder and have been manic or hypomanic then you would know firsthand that you are not in control of your actions of thoughts during a manic episode.

^^ I am really trying to avoid this kind of argument. I thank you for your input, but please note that I am far from ignorant when it comes to this issue - I'm at the end of my ninth year of tertiary study and have read a lot of literature regarding psychology, psychiatry (and its medications) and different modes of therapy, and from the vast array of viewpoints on the topic that I have encountered, blanket statements such as what is written above are not proven through empirical evidence.

If you knew more about me, you'd also realise how funny it is to tell me that my ""beliefs" are incorrect".

And to be honest, I did many things that felt out of my control while I was ill, but the important thing to note here is that the verb "to be" is written in the simple past: "was". There is no denying this for me - it has been my subjective experience of life. I was extremely "ill" for four years and then discovered the experiences that were the cause of my illness, and slowly recovered through meditation, developing close relationships, exploring my fears and pain (through conscious choice), and implementing changes in my life that combated these issues. I'm not saying that this is how it is for everyone, but I am definitely not ill now, nor do I self-medicate or believe that I will never recover - because I have recovered.


I think it sounds like there are two issues here - him using his illness as an excuse for all his behaviour, and the belief that bipolar is biological and will always need medication. I'm actually not going to get involved here and express my views about the second part, and I don't think you should either - he is entitled to his views about his illness, especially as it is his illness, and a lot of people would agree with him. You are also entitled to your views, of course, and a lot of people would agree with you too...

This is pretty much why I think we're going to have to leave it here.

The the OP: my concern is that you may be forcing your own agenda (mental illness is not a real disorder, the use of psychedelics can "cure" mental
illness, etc.) upon your friend. You should re-examine your motives.

I think you've misread my posts - the thing that bothers me the most is that my friend smokes cannabis daily and uses mushrooms recreationally while on medication. I do not suggest that psychedelics are a "cure" per se, but they without a doubt can open you up to repressed experiences (much like work with a good therapist can), and in doing so expose the cause of your issues. Once the problem has been unearthed, it can be dealt with in myriad ways. Meditation, creating close friendships, discussing my problems in an entirely open and honest fashion and facing my triggers head on did it for me.

encouraging others to go off their medication is not the answer, nor is suggesting. that is the decision of the person taking the meds, and their Dr...


As for the use of psychedlics for mental illness. I believe they have their place in that they can create some insight, but at the same time, not everyone will respond well nor may it cause lasting change to beliefs about the self. they can also cause a worsing of symptoms or trigger psychosis in succeptable people (of which someone with bi polar will have an increased risk of this). I also question alot of the claims made that psychedelics such as ayahuasca and mescaline are great for the healing of mental illness, which one often hears in south america. As far as I know this hasn´t really been tested empirically. And just because something has been used as a medicine for a very long time by certain Indigenous peoples does not mean its use is always (or even minimally) effective.

but this is just the skeptic scientist in me talking. I have had some good insightful experiences on psychedelics that have allowed me to break out of depressive thinking for a short time, and allow me to see what is important and what is not. I have also had said insights through cognitive behavioural therapy too.

Psytaco, I am not some crackpot hippy suggesting that someone that is diagnosed bipolar should rip open their brain with psychedelics (especially not while they're on medication). But if one is spouting psychological theory like gospel while smoking pot and consuming psychedelics recreationally, isn't that a little contradictory? I first approached the issue in a manner that addressed the dangers and was met with hostility.

I'm not advocating "tripping" at all, nor am I suggesting that my friend should stop taking his medication, but if he likes to "trip" irrespective of the dangers (for fun), I suggested trying a different approach....

I can see this going nowhere - my pre-edited post was inflammatory to say the least, and I'm glad that the edit function was utilised before things got even more out of hand.

Once again, thanks for the opinions guys - I should have known that in order to get clearer opinions I would have had to have written a novel about the situation - there is too much invested emotion from all parties (myself included), and the situation is truly a quagmire to those that don't live it on a day-to-day basis.

Peace <3
 
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