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Bupe need advice about stopping suboxone; now have stopped. merged thread.

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I think the PAWS that bojangles mentions is the WD that I am primarily referring to.

I stopped suboxone for up to a week at doses around .25mg a day and didn't have dramatic withdrawals. I was sweating, had restless sleep, and felt weak, but i wasn't shitting my brains out or kicking my legs constantly like I do coming off whole opiates.

But suboxone gives you a horrible case of PAWS - and PAWS to me is still withdrawal. It feels like a one ton blanket has been wrapped around me and I feel unbearably exhausted and bored.

I still feel shitty, and its been 60 days, but its getting better. That one ton blanket is now just a pair of twenty pound dumb bells tied to my wrists.
 
/\ Bro congrats on you for making it to 60 fucking days. I WISH I had just stuck to it but I was falling behind in bills, couldn't stay on top of shit, and went back to opiates mainly for energy to catch up on problems that PAWs were causing. I also noticed at random points like right before I relapsed I had weird bouts with acute wds out of NOWHERE. I hadn't touched opiates in over 3 weeks and besides the cripping depression/fatigue from the paws, I actually got hit with hot flashes, sweats, terrible anxiety out of nowhere. Its almost like it cycles and has peaks and dips in the phase. I dealt with it for a couple days and collapsed on day 23... fucking nightmare it was.

I DO honestly believe you are right about the paws aspect with suboxone. I had also found some studies about it that I tried posting in TDS a while ago, but they were talking about how sub has a very long and delayed PAWS phase. That was actually the reason I went back to pods to taper, although at this point I'm still confused at what my next plan will be to get off.
 
well jb i only did .5mg today and will do the same tomorow and hopefully in a week or two of maintaning this i will hopefully feel the elusive euphoria. thanks again for taking the time and explaining everything to me in such great detail !! i really think i am going to be okay after 10 years of hardcore opiate abuse!!! and maybe just maybe sometime in the near future i can b totaly opiate free i simply refuse to give up the benzos though but i only use them for phenominal sleep!! your advice has been simply priceless to me!!!!
 
92 days since my last suboxone dose. took loperamide for a little over a month to hold off the withdrawals - and sadly discovered that lope gives me a better high than suboxone ever did, and i liked suboxone.

Yes m'am, loperamide feels just like a low dose of poppy tea to me. Nice, fuzzy, happy mood all day.

But despite powerful desires to take higher doses of loperamide, I tapered off of it and have now been opiate free entirely for about 60 days.

I avoided most of the WD's using the loperamide, but the PAWS were a real bitch the first three weeks. I woke up every day and thought "how the fuck am I going to get out of bed today?" they were always worse in the day, and not as bad at night.

by week 4 i felt some rapid improvement.

Now at week 8 I still feel a bit off, but it really isn't that bad. I wake up in a decent mood every day now and catch myself in real good moods every couple days or so. Sleep is totally normal and has been since week 3. I also only think about drugs maybe 10% of the day now, were as before they occupied 99% of my thoughts.
 
well jb i only did .5mg today and will do the same tomorow and hopefully in a week or two of maintaning this i will hopefully feel the elusive euphoria. thanks again for taking the time and explaining everything to me in such great detail !! i really think i am going to be okay after 10 years of hardcore opiate abuse!!! and maybe just maybe sometime in the near future i can b totaly opiate free i simply refuse to give up the benzos though but i only use them for phenominal sleep!! your advice has been simply priceless to me!!!!

I am so happy for you. I cant wait to hear about how you feel once you get adjusted to that low dose.

All I want is to help people just like I helped myself and it is people like you that keep me coming back to BL, day after day, even though there are so many people out there trying to cause problems, arguments, etc...

you make it worth it. Please keep us updated.

Keep up the good work. Maybe once enough people have good results with my suboxone dosing suggestions, more people will stop bitching at me for trying to spread "lies" and claim "theories" as "facts"...and start to focus on the more important aspect of what im trying to do, which is help people.

Good luck
 
I think its good your trying to spread the word about suboxones euphoric effects at smaller dosages. it could save a lot of people money and make their eventual kick easier.

But people should also know that the vast majority of long term suboxone users have a very, very, very difficult time getting off of it.

For most addicts, suboxone maintenance is far superior to a dope/pill habit. But I believe it complicates things when the time comes to quit entirely.
 
I think its good your trying to spread the word about suboxones euphoric effects at smaller dosages. it could save a lot of people money and make their eventual kick easier.

But people should also know that the vast majority of long term suboxone users have a very, very, very difficult time getting off of it.

For most addicts, suboxone maintenance is far superior to a dope/pill habit. But I believe it complicates things when the time comes to quit entirely.

I agree with you.....but do you know why they have such a hard time with it?

Because, one, doctors dont seem to know what they are doing when it comes to suboxone as a maintanence drug. its new to them. Or for whatever reason, doctors simply dont know the correct way to taper someone off of subs. I guarantee you that yuo could go to ANY suboxone doctor in the U.S. and ask him/her what they think is about the correct dose for someone to try and jump off of suboxone at....and they will almost always say..."~2mg's.....after a couple months of tapering."....THAT IS REDICULOUS. Most doctors overprescribe there sub patients, giving them up to 32mg's/day(24 on average id say), and when you are at that dose for a long period of time, it would take months of you weaning your dose down to even 2 mg's, and then you should wean down even more to atleast 0.5 mg's, AND THEN stay at that dose for atleast a few weeks before you can jump off with minimal to no withdrawals. Even PAWS.

Also.....the patient who is actually taking the suboxone is partially responsible here as well, because in my opinion, if you are given a medication to take(even by a liscenced physician) you should do as much research into that drug as possible, so you know what you are getting yourself into. Dont just take the doctors word for it. Doctors are notorious for lying, misunderstanding, being hard headed, refusing to accept something that goes against what "medical books" say, etc.....especially when dealing with suboxone. Every person who is taking suboxone should do there own research to realize, on there own, that they are more than likely prescribed MUCH more sub than they need, the doctor isnt necessarily right about everything, i.e.....the nalaxone in suboxone is active and prevents abuse, etc.....there are so many things you can learn on your own that willl go totally agains what you were told by a so called "proffessional". This is exactly what I did before I got on suboxone, and look how I ended up.......I am taking tiny doses of sub, and enjoying euphoria that isnt even supposed to be possible for someone who is on opiate maintanence. Not to mention all the other benefits I have gained by teaching myself about the true mechanism of suboxone. I am also not dependent on my suboxone.....this also, goes against what medical sources say is possible. And its all thanks to me thinking outside of the box, learning for myself instead of nodding yes to everything a doctor tells me, and experimenting(trial and error) until I figured out a way to maintain a euphoria on my suboxone doses day after day, while still not developing an addiction to it.

Long story short......it has ALOT to do with misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and ignorance.
 
But stay on .25mg for a minimum of 2 weeks, I went for 3 weeks, and when I stopped, I didn't have a single wd. Although I did get slammed by PAWS a week later, which causes me to break down after 23 days clean. Imo stopping is the easiest part, its the PAWS the usually do most people in.

I've heard the same thing from many others as far as getting thru the PAWS. They say the first 1-2 wks off subs wasn't so bad but it was the ongoing duration of dealing with on/off insomnia, no energy, self-doubt, 'restless legs,' depression... etc. I've heard a few people say they wake up and get out of bed and feel like their wearing an iron suit or something to that effect... and that also comes and goes. This is weeks later and sometimes longer. The few times I've quit were many yrs ago and didn't know anything about PAWS but looking back, I'm sure that was my downfall on a couple of occasions. Anyway... just wanted to reinforce what your saying here.
 
I've heard the same thing from many others as far as getting thru the PAWS. They say the first 1-2 wks off subs wasn't so bad but it was the ongoing duration of dealing with on/off insomnia, no energy, self-doubt, 'restless legs,' depression... etc. I've heard a few people say they wake up and get out of bed and feel like their wearing an iron suit or something to that effect... and that also comes and goes. This is weeks later and sometimes longer. The few times I've quit were many yrs ago and didn't know anything about PAWS but looking back, I'm sure that was my downfall on a couple of occasions. Anyway... just wanted to reinforce what your saying here.

I think the PAWS in this scenario has alot more to do with mental issues than physical ones. If someone follows that taper plan correctly, and they stay at 0.25mg's/day for atleast 2-3 weeks before jumping off, I think the physical symptoms of withdrawal would probably be almost non-existant(atleast for most people who follow that taper). But I can imagine how someone would be mentally "distraught" after depending on a medication for so long to keep them "OK" and then having to stop taking the medication, kind of like taking a "safety net" so to speak, out from under you. Im not saying that you wouldnt experience physical "symptoms" from the PAWS, im just saying that whatever symptoms you do experience would probably be more of a result of mental issues. I am lucky in that I have not had to go through any PAWS with suboxone. I did, however, experience them for only a few days after quitting heroin one time a few years ago. I think it started about a week after I got clean.
 
jb JUST WANTED TO UPDATE U I HAVE BEEN DOING .5 IN THE MORNING AND .5 MIDAFTERNOON HAVENT QUITE MADE IT TO JUST .5 YET BUT I CAN SAY I HAVE NOT TOUCHED EVEN A CRUMB MORE THAN THAT!! WHICH IS PRETTY MAJOR FOR ME I THIK YOUR ADVICE HAS BEEN AMAZING AND U WERE SOOOOO RIGHT ABOUT HOW LITTLE U CAN GET BY ON. U HAVE EXPLAINED MORE TO ME ABOUT MY SUBOXONE THAN MY 'ADDICTIONOLOGIST" EVER DID. I THINK U R VERY VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE AND U HAVE BEEN MY MENTOR!! U ROCK JB U REALLY DO!! I THINK U R FABULOUS!!!
 
jb JUST WANTED TO UPDATE U I HAVE BEEN DOING .5 IN THE MORNING AND .5 MIDAFTERNOON HAVENT QUITE MADE IT TO JUST .5 YET BUT I CAN SAY I HAVE NOT TOUCHED EVEN A CRUMB MORE THAN THAT!! WHICH IS PRETTY MAJOR FOR ME I THIK YOUR ADVICE HAS BEEN AMAZING AND U WERE SOOOOO RIGHT ABOUT HOW LITTLE U CAN GET BY ON. U HAVE EXPLAINED MORE TO ME ABOUT MY SUBOXONE THAN MY 'ADDICTIONOLOGIST" EVER DID. I THINK U R VERY VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE AND U HAVE BEEN MY MENTOR!! U ROCK JB U REALLY DO!! I THINK U R FABULOUS!!!

im very happy for you. i think its great that the low dose suboxone is working so well for you. please keep us updated on how your doing.
 
I think the PAWS in this scenario has alot more to do with mental issues than physical ones. If someone follows that taper plan correctly, and they stay at 0.25mg's/day for atleast 2-3 weeks before jumping off, I think the physical symptoms of withdrawal would probably be almost non-existant(atleast for most people who follow that taper). But I can imagine how someone would be mentally "distraught" after depending on a medication for so long to keep them "OK" and then having to stop taking the medication, kind of like taking a "safety net" so to speak, out from under you. Im not saying that you wouldnt experience physical "symptoms" from the PAWS, im just saying that whatever symptoms you do experience would probably be more of a result of mental issues. I am lucky in that I have not had to go through any PAWS with suboxone. I did, however, experience them for only a few days after quitting heroin one time a few years ago. I think it started about a week after I got clean.

You experienced PAWS for only a few days after quitting heroin?

And you have never experienced any kid of withdrawal or any sort of PAWS from quitting suboxone, even at doses over 1.5mg a day?

I wish I had your physiology, jamesBrown. In fact, I think every other opiate addict in the world wishes they did as well.
 
You experienced PAWS for only a few days after quitting heroin?

And you have never experienced any kid of withdrawal or any sort of PAWS from quitting suboxone, even at doses over 1.5mg a day?

I wish I had your physiology, jamesBrown. In fact, I think every other opiate addict in the world wishes they did as well.

actually its at doses AT 1.5mg's or less/day.....but yes, no PAWS on subs. It all has to do with properly maintaining for a long enough period of time, and it has to do with what dose you start at and how quickly you taper down from there. Because suboxone(or bupe) is a complex drug the methods used to manipulate it so that you "bypass" WD's are complex as well......and mny people don't take the time to recognize that or even care to recognize that, and then eventually they bitch about how much they hurt, when they could have gained some knowledge to prevent the pain.
 
JB i was just thinkin now that i am splitting my pill into .5 lines they r lasting for days its okay right to leave them crunched up out in the open isnt it ? i just dont want them to go bad!!!
 
preferrably you would want to keep them in like a bag or a folded up piece of paper so they arent exposed to too much light, moisture, heat, etc....but if your leaving your lines out for only a couple days, maybe a few days, im pretty sure that would be fine. Allthough I think its just as easy to put them in little baggies or a piece of paper folded into a square shape or something.

But yes, I personally have left lines out for a couple days and didnt notice any difference in potency. i just dont reccommend it as the alternative is so easy.
 
I agree with James-Brown.

I've known few people know who use to be on Sub long-term and never complained much of PAWS..The PAWS phase is something all addicts will go through once they quit any drug/opiates. I think the reason why some have PAWS and others don't depends a lot on the taper, frame of mind, pshycal shape, age, drug/opiate history etc. Somebody once told me that if you taper too quick (even jumping from the smallest dose) then you will get WDs & PAWS..

The PAWS he said happen because since people experience WDs their frame of mind is such that they expect withdrawals everyday, so thus it can seem long drawn out situation...He also said if you have minor symptoms during the lower doses then that's a good thing as your getting use to reality and getting rid of harsh PAWS too..One would rather go through minor withdrawals while on the lower doses then to go through PAWS for months by tapering fast and/or jumping from a high dose such as 1mgs. Other People have said PAWS also happen because all the half-life of the sub is coming out of our systems, so it's best to taper really slowly and be in minor discomfort at the lower doses because it's getting rid of the higher doses of sub and it's half-life, otherwise it will all come out once you jump and will reflect PAWS.. I've seen people who excericse recover fast...I've met 5 people who were on Subutex for years just say you need to taper slowly, skip/alternate days, exercise, change your addictive mentality and basically get rid of bitterness and anger and become mature people..Also by sorting out any life issues such as financial, relationship/marriage, family etc, all this does make life and PAWS seem much worse then they really are..

If you have harsh withdrawals then it's because of not tapering properly, and that in turn becomes harsh PAWS, cuz if you have harsh withdrawals they tend to linger on and go away slowly so then they become PAWS, but if you taper slowly, even get minor symptoms during lower doses, change your life-style, addictive mentally, sort out any issues and worries and excericse then chances are PAWS will be non-existent..Of course you will feel some symptoms but those symptoms everybody feels coming off a habbit albeit heroin or even weed...This is what I observed and experienced from other people..

Also here in the UK we have small doses i.e 0.4 & 0.2 so suppose that makes it easier...Also many folks here have said the less bitter and jealous you are the more you recover, they say it depends on a person, if a person is temperamental or an insecure person then of course they would feel the brunt of PAWS...I personally have not had any trouble going from 12mgs to 1mgs and I've been on Subutex for 5 years now..I also excercise and choose to be in a good frame of mind and try to be happy, be a good person, be nice, and be poistive, I hope all this and people's positive experiences and advice will help me get through once I jump..If other people can do it so can I. But yeah I do agree it depends on the person and their mentality and how they taper, but exercise I do believe is the nearest cure for PAWS.
 
well jb just wanted to let you know i was AMAZED today when i did my afternoon .5 mg i felt the euphpria u have spoken about it!! i could not beleive it because i have never felt anything at all of off my subs other than just normal and no cravings!! i have to say u were right!!!! i am doing wonderfull and i have to tell u i can not believe how easy it has been going from 16mg to .5 in the morning to .5 in the afternoon thanx again for all of your advice
 
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