NBOMe vs 2c dose response curves

[Anon0631]

I started a new thread because I don't want to veer another one off topic. Mods, please merge as necessary.

Let me start by quoting what Jesusgreen wrote on the relative safety of 25i & 25c NBOMe's.

The real key if you want to remain alive and safe with these is to start low (500ug or less with each substance) and then work your way up in increments of 100-200ug, no more.

Why? Well look at the 2C-X series for example. Do you take 20mg of a 2C-X, decide that feels "not quite there" and double your dose to 40mg? Of course not, but people seem to be doing this with the NBOMes for whatever stupid reason - deciding 1mg isn't quite enough, and so they need 2mg.

I think it's due to the small dosages, people think "Well I'm only increasing the dose by 1mg", without realising that hey they're actually DOUBLING the dose.

So if you take 1mg and it's not quite enough for you, jump up to 1.1mg or 1.2mg - NOT 1.5mg or 2mg. That 100-200ug might not seem like a lot but it can make quite the difference.

So the question is, are the dose response curves flatter for NBOMe's than they are for 2c's? My opinion is yes.

 

[Crashing]

No... they're pretty much the same. That's the point he was making.

 

[Anon0631]

You misunderstand. I wasn't asking someone to interpret Jesusgreen's opinion, I was asking people to add their own. I very much respect JG's contribution but personally don't agree with his point.

In my experience (2c-i, 2c-b, 2c-c, 2c-e, 25i, 25b, 25c, 25d and 25n) the response curves of NBOMe's seem to be flatter than those of 2c's. For example, 750μg of 25c seems about twice as intense to me as 350μg whereas 40mg of 2c-c was much more than twice the intensity of 20mg. Obviously this is a very subjective method to gauge dose response curves (it doesn't take into account set, setting, ROA, expectations, absorption, etc) so I was seeking other opinions from people experienced in 2c and NBOMe use.

 

[Darkstorn]

So the question is, are the dose response curves flatter for NBOMe's than they are for 2c's? My opinion is yes.

In my opinion: no.

None of them are flat. That's the thing here. I'd say "exponential" is better descriptive of their effectiveness... To put it in numbers: 2mg of 25I-NBOMe to me felt about ten times stronger than 1mg. So yeah. I'd say they're exactly the same: NBOMe's are just more effective to begin with.

2C-E is the same story although even at more heroic doses i find it more "easy." 50mg feels a lot stronger than 30mg but on the other hand it doesn't feel like an ovedose like with the NBOMe... :D

 

[Crashing]

I wasn't interpreting JG's opinion, that was mine.

It's really hard to tell at this point, psychedelics seem to have a plateau effect (+, ++, +++, etc..), so the dosage response curve might not even be a curve, and it's probably individually specific.

I think your daily routine, diet, exercise etc... correlates to the neurotransmitters you have at a given time that are available to be manipulated by a chemical. It seems to get really complex when you consider the neural networking and how many variables are at play.

 

[specialspack]

In my opinion: no.

None of them are flat. That's the thing here. I'd say "exponential" is better descriptive of their effectiveness... To put it in numbers: 2mg of 25I-NBOMe to me felt about ten times stronger than 1mg. So yeah. I'd say they're exactly the same: NBOMe's are just more effective to begin with.

2C-E is the same story although even at more heroic doses i find it more "easy." 50mg feels a lot stronger than 30mg but on the other hand it doesn't feel like an ovedose like with the NBOMe... :D

Dose-response curves are not exponential, they are sigmoid, one can be "flatter" or "steeper" than another.

The points on the curve when the slope steepens can vary a lot between individuals. With 2C-B or 2C-I in the 10-20mg range, one or two mg can make a big difference depending on the person. Once you get over 20mg or so, the slope flattens somewhat. I expect the same holds true for the NBOMes.

 

[Crashing]

Dose-response curves are not exponential, they are sigmoid, one can be "flatter" or "steeper" than another.

The points on the curve when the slope steepens can vary a lot between individuals. With 2C-B or 2C-I in the 10-20mg range, one or two mg can make a big difference depending on the person. Once you get over 20mg or so, the slope flattens somewhat. I expect the same holds true for the NBOMes.

Ff you're saying there is a threshold and a ceiling then the relevant dosage range is still exponential. (10-20mg in your example)

 

[Anon0631]

No it isn't. The actual steepness of an exponential curve increases in the Y as X increases (not merely the value but the slope). There's no evidence to suggest that dose/response curves of the substances mentioned show this property.

That would mean that (as a purely hypothetical example) increasing the dose of 2c-e from 12-14mg results in twice the increase in intensity as an increase from 10-12mg.

 

[Crashing]

I was just saying, in your example, such would be the case...

And that is generally the case with many psychedelics, they are thresholds.

 

[Solipsis]

Hmmm I don't look at a whole class of drugs and say that either will or won't categorically double my doses working my way up. At least not most of the time, but there may be an exception where I categorically use extreme caution and that would be with DOX and NBOME/NBMD/etc, among other families.

There are tryptamines that have given me confidence to jump to a double dose, based on the safety profile of say a homologue (like metocin vs psilocin) but with certain 5-MeO tryptamines I would definitely shit my pants using that approach.
With 2C phenethylamines there is similar variance.

It can be a lot of fun looking for generalizations to make with psychedelics, especially when it is non-threatening like evaluating, analyzing or determinating sensory effects...
But when talking dosage I think we can make careful expectations at the most but should still always evaluate each compound individually since as far as suprises go, overdosing is one of my least favorite.