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[NBOMe Subthread] Complexing & Surfactants

frontbluntt

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Apr 22, 2009
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What is the purpose/ what is it?

*Solipsis/mod announcement*
This is another thread's OP stating a more elaborate and specific question on the topic of surfactants and complexing.


Does anyone know of any readily available surficants? I have heard people mention shampoo? Doesn't sound pleasant but just an example. Looking to aid in absorption of nbome compounds.
 
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The idea behind "complexing" NBOMe blotters or solution is to combine the NBOMe with a surfactant molecule, such as HPBCD or polysorbate 80. The theory behind this is that it serves two functions: it increases the solubility of the NBOMe molecule in water or ethanol, and it allows the NBOMe molecules to much more easily reach the mucous membranes of the mouth (or nasal passages) due to the surfactant properties of the HPBCD. I don't know by what magnitude absorption is increased if any, but it is reported to work brilliantly by many.

Tregar goes in to some detail on page 3 of the Big & Dandy 25I-NBOMe thread - http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...NBOMe-Thread?p=9865548&viewfull=1#post9865548

Please note that it's not a necessity for administering NBOMes.
 
I was curious about the same thing OP, thanks! :)

I recently acquired some of this substance and was wanting to look into this as I've been reading a lot about it.
 
Surfactants

Does anyone know of any readily available surficants? I have heard people mention shampoo? Doesn't sound pleasant but just an example. Looking to aid in absorption of nbome compounds.
 
Surfactants.

Tween series / polysorbates are common ones. Sodium lauryl sulfate (found in shampoo, toothpaste) is another common one that is much "soapier".
 
Sodium lauryl sulphate is readily available, as it's used in soap manufacture. It is also used in many buccal pharm formulations to improve absorption - usually at around the 1% level. Perhaps if one were to go the blotter-style route, you could apply a small amount of SLS solution to the blotter, then dry. Finally add the appropriate amount of nbome solution and dry. Ready to go.
 
Surfactants is the word you're probably looking for. Really anything that creates emulsions (a type of solution of 2 things into each other) of watery and oily chemicals is a surfactant (this is done through change of surface tension but I don't think that is interesting right now). In this case: NBOMe compounds are the rather oily ones and they don't particularly handle themselves well cruising into and through our bodies - penetrating our mucous layers inefficiently when we take it by mouth or nose... but also sometimes dissolving too well in fatty parts in our own body which prevents them from reaching the brain.
OK info you did not ask for aside:

HPBCD (hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin) appears to be by far the most used surfactant because it has a special ability (though it has not even proven to be theoretically that applicable to NBOMe's, apparently the reality of bio-assays have shown that it increases effectivity). The special ability is this:
First consider soap: it works like this - one side of the molecule associates with or dissolves in the fatty stuff, the other side dissolves in the water part. So it's like a one-arm chaperone. Though there can be more than one chaperone host to a 'guest compound'.
Then consider milk: there are micelles in it that work like this - a ball is formed, pointing out are parts that dissolve in water, pointing inward are parts that like fatty stuff. So it's like a protective ball.
Now consider HPBCD: it's like a box or a trap that catches fatty stuff like an NBOMe - pointing out are (again) the water dissolving parts as always. So it's like a super effective personal shield.

Soap or shampoo taste like shit, and remember you have to keep it in your mouth for 15-20 minutes or something. Milk, although I never heard someone try it, tastes better... but you probably have to "shake" the NBOMe into the protective balls (micelles). However, the concentration of these micelles is limited whereas soap is a concentrated surfactant. HPBCD apparently doesn't really taste like anything especially since you need so very little of it. Again a warning though: it may hardly work if you do not "shake" the NBOMe into the box/trap structures.

What do I mean by shaking? Well these micelle balls and HPBCD traps are normally shut tight. You have to vibrate the molecules to disturb this and allow the NBOMe to be chaperoned and 'protected' for absorption. This vibration is applied by "ultrasonic" waves (this means the wave shake faster than the waves of sound move). Normally there is a device in labs for this but people have reported to use ultrasonic toothbrushes to shake up their NBOMe/surfactant mix, or (oh my) who knows perhaps there exist vibrators that can do the job.
You have to realize that typically tens of minutes are needed to complete a preparation like this. For NBOMe and HPBCD, I don't know what a reasonable amount of time is to apply the shaking. In any case, when done the result is called a "complex" i.e. the target drug (in this case the NBOMe) is associated with or complexed with the surfactant.

The suggestions previously given by these helpful users do not have this downside I described of needing 'complexing'. Compared to soap they of course have the advantage of not containing the other nasty shit and perfumes and what not.
I also don't know for sure if HPBCD is the superior choice and worth the trouble, but from what I understand once the complex is formed it helps carry the drug to it's destination without just 'letting it go' once it is inside the body. I would like confirmation or rejection of this idea, do you guys know how easy a HPBCD complex would dissociate compared to a simple surfactant?

@TS, Any more questions?
 
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I'm sure this will be tried soon as a method, and a report of the outcome will be forthcoming. The problem with the HPBCD method is acquiring the material (difficult and not cheap) - SLS is dirt cheap and readily available, and appears a commonly used method of enhancing permeation across the buccal membrane in relatively weak concentrations.

It can be sourced for nearly a dollar a gram... not that expensive.

I've heard of many successful reports but seen no comparisons between the salt of an nBOMe and the complexed salt.
 
Not at my end (hpbcd). So given how common SLS is actually used in pharm buccal formulations, it seems a valid option in place of hpbcd (and perhaps at least or more effective - but time will tell for that).
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14705199

ABE: and another... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2850451/

I'm sure this will be tried soon as a method, and a report of the outcome will be forthcoming. The problem with the HPBCD method is acquiring the material (difficult and not cheap) - SLS is dirt cheap and readily available, and appears a commonly used method of enhancing permeation across the buccal membrane in relatively weak concentrations.

SDS is a soap just to let you know. Stick a bar of soap in your mouth for 20 min and see how much you like it.
 
Sodium lauryl sulfate is not bar soap! Bar soaps are made from saponification of triglycerides - they are fatty acid salts (sodium stearate, sodium laurate etc).

Sodium lauryl (or dodecyl) sulfate is a synthetic surfactant made by treating lauryl alcohol with sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide. It does not make a soapy "residue" and lacks the soapy/fatty smell that "classic" soaps do, hence it is refered to as a detergent.

Sodium laureth (or lauryl/dodecyl ether) sulfate is a third chemical that includes a few polyethylene glycol groups. This makes it even more polar and effective as a detergent.

IUFiL.png


Tween/polysorbate series are sugars, modified with ethylene glycol groups and esterified with fatty acids. Bigger numbers = more glycols and bigger fatty acid chains. They are used as food emulsifiers and wetting agents.

Tween/polysorbate 80:
400px-Polysorbate_80.png


HBPCD is a modified cyclic heptapolysaccharide (circular chain of 7 sugar molecules) shaped like a donut, with propylene glycol groups hanging off.

Structure of HPBCD:
CJnEH.png
 
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After that post, women may find themselves more attracted to the upper alkyl (acid) sulphate salts while man may find themselves more attracted to the lower cyclic polysaccharide type.
Tween is for kinky people I guess.
 
Tween is kinda like a molecular cat 'o' nine tails, so I suppose it is for the whips-and-chains types of people ;P

Unfortunately when it comes to surfactants, longer alkyl chains may not be better... solubility starts to fall off beyond a certain length.

I forgot to mention there are two more types of surfactant, one of them is the quaternary amines. They are used as disinfectants and Phase Transfter Catalysts to help organic and water phases mix in chemical reactions. Some of them are used as disinfectants/detergents (benzethonium, benzalkonium) in things like Pine-Sol, antibacterial wipes, household disinfectant etc. I don't advise you use Pine Sol to prepare your 25x blotters though.

0Pwji.png


Then there are also "non-ionic" surfactants like polyethylene glycol and Triton X-100, too.

400px-Triton_X-100.png


I suppose someone with access to journals on drug formulations would be able to tell you the optimum amount of surfactant for efficient sublingual/buccal delivery of 25-X or other highly hydrophobic compounds.

There are ways of solubilising terpenes at up to 20-25% if you get into multisurfactant systems so it could be theoretically possible to make stable solutions of cannabinoids for buccal delivery.
 
Is that the same benzethonium chloride found in some ketamine vial formulations?

edit: found the answer already: yes it is... in Ketalar. And the combination has some non-standard acetylcholinergic activity but I'm not sure if this validates subjectively different experiences or if that has to be contributed to placebo.

And thanks for the thorough encyclopaedic cataloging of the title compounds.
 
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The very same.

Most surfactants work as disinfectsnts because bacterial cell walls are insoluble fats and hence the surfactants tear them into shreds.


And thanks, by the way. A good knowledge of solvents and surfactants can go a long way. You'll never find a stain you can't clean or a compound that won't (eventually) dissolve.
 
It doesn't sound like you want that to happen to your own fatty cell walls either, right? Ripping them or even making them more permeable.
Or is there a distinct difference that warrants it's safety?
 
The cells on the interior of your mouth, gums, skin etc. all take a beating pretty regularly (acids, osmotic damage, temperature, mechanical injury), and as such the tissues regenerate pretty quickly. If you brush your teeth with toothpaste you probably regularly expose your oral tissues to surfactants without consequence. Some people do respond negatively to surfactants on their oral mucosa though, but those are few and far between.

The most that will happen to you is localised irritation. Even pure surfactant isn't going to do much other than irritate the area.

Chronic exposure to high concentrations would cause tissue damage, but nobody drinks soap for fun I hope.

Anyway my recomendation for a surfactant for 25x would probably be Tween 80 or 20. It's cheap as hell and easier to source than freaky cyclodextrin derivatives. And it comes in food grades.
 
SDS is a soap just to let you know. Stick a bar of soap in your mouth for 20 min and see how much you like it.

As sekio kindly noted, it's not soap. It is used in detergents and the like, though.

We are also talking about a pretty low concentration (~1%). So for a 500ug dose, you'd need the presence of around 5ug of SLS (being consistent with above indicated pharm formulations). Another set of compounds used to enhance buccal permeation are bile salts (e.g. Sodium glycholate). They don't sound as appealing (appear to work as emulsifiers). Even the Tweens are not so easy to come by here. So SLS is just one of many options (and seems a worthwhile approach).
 
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25i-NBOMe / HPBCD (Cyclodextrin) ratio

Hey guys i was wondering what a good NBOMe to HPBCD ratio is. From what i've researched i've found 1:8 is an accepted amount. Can anyone shed some light on whether this is recommended?
 
1 part NBOMe 2 parts cyclodextrin, or more. More cyclodextrin won't hurt it, not enough will make it less potent.

Just keep track of how much cyclodex you add.
 
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