Bupe Naloxone could have an effect/Ki Value Range overlap

[Chemgineer]

When I.v'ing suboxone

Imo even sublingually as well. And there is plenty of data out there to back that up.

As people here say all the time: a simple google search will yeild you the info.

Ok onto my point:

Not only are Ki values given in a range, and differ according to various variables, but the data is fallible. The experience of thousands of users confirms that there is some sort of dampening that naloxone gives af an I.v /im/is/ir dose of suboxone.

I understand discounting just that. But discounting it because of the Ki values they referenced, to me is placing a ridiculous amount of faith in the science.


The difference between subutex and suboxone is there in many many people.

And naloxone is quite likely the reason for this.

Just because its not derived from an experiment should the subjective effect be as discounted as it is in this debate.

"Naloxone has no effect. Period. Bupe outcompetes it".


Sometimes it seems to, sometimes it doesn't.
It does at certain receptors In certain parts of the brain sometimes, sometimes not.

Ive seen SUBSTANTIAL overlap between naloxone Ki at Mu and Bupe Ki at Mu in the brains of both humans and non human animals. And in different parts of the brains.


Have you ever navigated a Ki value database? Mined it so to speak?

You'll see the variability I am seeing.

Why don't I provide it here?

You guys always say a quick search of Google.. Well I can find a database within a few clicks. I can't so easy on this cellphone tho, sorry.

I said earlier that I've seen way too much belief in the science by the Mods here, who , btw, I respect and have been following for a long time.

Besides the variability in the Values and the Range overlaps, and differences in individuals, science changes all the time.

What if we were talking about the Sigma Opiate Receptor? Well thats no longer even classed as one.

Now, if there is some other reason why talk about interference of naloxone gets hushed so quick, like maybe you don't want people discussing it like that for fear it will be a fflag for those wanting to take away our access to subs, well that would make sense (if that was even a sensible reason, which it probably isn't)



Anyway, Mods and those who quickly shut down talk of naloxone having effect by citing its disadvantage at the receptor site, I hope this is recieved with an open mind and with goodwill.

 

[RTrain]

Wouldn't naloxone having some action justify them putting it in the Suboxone formula, backing its distribution as the ideal ORT?

 

[Chemgineer]

If that's really why they put it In.

It looks like they were adding it because naloxone is so famous for precipitating wd that it has a value in that.

Bupe seems to overall outcompete nx at Mu (much more fully at Kappa) .

I believe there are mechanisms at work that can't be elucidated at present, or I fear maybe ever.

I fear we have gotten so stuck in a model that mechanisms won't be seen because it is approached with an ever complex model.


I suspect when chemicals compete for a receptor like bupe and nx a whole host of as of yet unseen things take place that wind up giving an effevt that isnt explained fully with the current model.

When I saw sigma get nixed and then saw the science on the feedback loops between ORL1 activation and Mu, Kappa, Ect. Agonism, I sorta knew that things likely aren't what they seem.


And they aren't, as we don't actually have a fully biological model explaining consciousness and how it arises.

Many who believe it arises in the brain will say it surely does, but they will tell you that we haven't gotten near to mapping it yet.

So to explain away qualitative evidence with supposed hard neuroscience is presumptive as hell at best.

As of today, we should still regard qualitative, subjective experience as very valid when it comes to these things.

I don't see how the science, and especially in this case, can be used to dismiss as baseless what is being reported.

I see it all the time .

"Nonsense, bupe outcompetes Nx period. This has been debated too long and we have clarified it for you too much. Please read and believe what we say about it. "

I mean am I right? Not by all or most, but by plenty of people with pplenty of respect here and elsewhere.

Some of these people I think have done amazing work at getting rid of disinfo, but this debate is not one of those areas where it helps.

Imo.

I had a presence on the web in the late 90's, I used to run Trevyns Psychedelic q+a, which was sold on ebay as the earliest drug forum.

I was big into helping fight disinfo.

I contaced owsley for instance and had him be my source to help me convince people that blotter didn't have strychnine.

I felt activist about it all and I sense that in many Mods and Legends here.

But on this I disagree, and on the faith they can put into some of the more complex models. And on the research itself.


Again at least, and mainly with this specific topic.

 

[JDilla]

interesting....veryyyyyyyyyyy interesting indeed!

 

[sekio]

So to explain away qualitative evidence with supposed hard neuroscience is presumptive as hell at best.

As of today, we should still regard qualitative, subjective experience as very valid when it comes to these things.

Meet my good friends, placebo, nocebo, and expectation effects!

"What's true is true for you" is a load of horsey poo. If your science is not falsifiable it's not science.

 

[Chemgineer]

Alright, Karl Poppers ideas seem reasonable, but I am saying that because one study showed a Ki Value for bupe above Nx both does not mean its always so, nor does it mean no effect can happen.

Especially and maybe only because their Values at Mu tend to overlap.


I can't see how after Mining a Ki DB that you could walk away confident enough to declare that Bupe outcompetes Naloxone period.

Based on what we have now, that seems hard to say. They are close, and sometimes Nx is greater, sometimes Bupe is, and it varies depending on what sort of medium the test is carried out in or on, what species, what part of the brain, etc...

I mean the difference between maybe a propoxyphene or some weakly affinitive opiate and bupe, its more cut and dry. But bupe and naloxone are very close and like I say often overlap.


A quick google search will yeild the results. My mobile won't mine a Db

 

[RTrain]

You probably should've posted this in the neuroscience/pharma discussion(use to be advanced drug disc), its been viewed 116 times and probably over the head of 110 people, myself included. But if you want anecdotal info and subjective experiences then you are in the right place, I suppose.

If that's really why they put it In.

It looks like they were adding it because naloxone is so famous for precipitating wd that it has a value in that.

Which is pointless as the Bupe does a fine job of that on its own. I figured at this point in the medication's history the best argument for it being there is that it limits the recreational value of abusing it. Competing enough to prevent an IV rush if nothing else.

 

[Chemgineer]

....


Now you won't here this next part anywhere else Probably (maybe?) But the key to getting a classic opiate feeling off bupe is to switch up roas. True in general but very true here.


I am not so sure the less is more 2mg tops rule is so set in stone in terms of I.v.


Like a lot here I think people with clout here get together and decided Its best to say there little or no difference between boxone and butex.

Oh how the bullshit flows.


They may believe themselves when they squash inquiry with their "affinity value" ref. That supposedly proves it's impossible for naloxone to have an effect. That bupe has an affinity that is greater in the various ways affinity values are understood. And so any difference is in the head. So goes the dogma. And woah to the dissenter. Even, especially, the barely informed who are new and learning this whole h&r thing they uphold it and are the first to pass on the lie with an authority they usually are cool enough to defer to the legends here..


And that's the rub. I think capitain heroin has staked that claim... If not cap I apologize.

You are only legend I can think of. And your filter threads have saved my life and changed my rituals and habits.



Anyway there is NO WHERE NEAR A COHERENT STANDARD THAT CAN BE RELIED UPON TO SAY BUPe has a better ki profile.

Sometimes naloxone is stronger sometimes BUPe..



But don't listen to these charts. ...they are good at seeing the ballpark relationships.

But you can feel the naloxone hit faster than the BUPe. And the metabolites......


Just.......take their gospel with tons of salt.


And know that this guy feels sublingual BUPe is best bet for opiate sensation.


Wait a few years...


The pgp inhibitors of the next gen will let is feel norbupe fully.


Etc.


Its prsseumptious for them to make the statements they make


Unless they are protecting their pure BUPe suppply

Hey so I'm reading your post about spitting or swollowing. I want to know how to get the most high out of my subutex. So I should put 8 mg under my tounge and let it sit there for 15 min then spit it out? Do I need to take anything else to potenate it?