My friends the state of the scene is in serious trouble...

[Folley]

you're free to believe whatever you want. but when you (and folley - who now freely admits that he embellishes the truth to make his point, that accurate numbers don't matter and he's comfortable telling somebody they took piperazine even if the pill doesn't contain piperazine) try to pass off this opinion, speculation and fabrication as factual information, we have a problem.

Don't even start with that shit. That is so fucking twisted it is not even funny.

How the fuck are you an admin? Seriously?


THE EXACT NUMBER DOES NOT MATTER. There is NO REASON the EXACT NUMBER is needed when its OBVIOUS to ANYONE who has read PR that there are MUCH HIGHER number of piperazine pills than MDMA pills in the US.

This is not debatable.

**mod edit - chemically insane - an infraction for abuse has been issued**

 

[alasdairm]

Don't even start with that shit. That is so fucking twisted it is not even funny.

How the fuck are you an admin? Seriously?

i'm an admin because i've put a lot of time and effort into the site and because, when i make a claim i can back it up and i don't call anybody who disagrees with me a dick and insult them the entire time. i'm also capable of saying "you know what, i don't know" when i don't know something

THE EXACT NUMBER DOES NOT MATTER. There is NO REASON the EXACT NUMBER is needed when its OBVIOUS to ANYONE who has read PR that there are MUCH HIGHER number of piperazine pills than MDMA pills in the US.

first there are more than half.

then it's at least 60%.

then it's 80%

then it's a good 70%

then it's 67.8%

then it's MOST pills

then it's an overwhelming percentage of pills

then it's 90%

then it's an overwhelmingly large percentage of the pills

every time you post it's a different number! they can't all be right - which one is it?

This is not debatable.

telling people "it's obvious" and calling them dicks when they disagree witbh you and invite you to make your case is not debating.

alasdair

 

[Chesh]

i don't mean to be that guy but he did say he doesn't think the exact number matters, so calling him out on the precise numbers he's given doesn't make much sense. i think he's just using them all as a way of saying a fuck load of pills in the US are shit.

jus' sayin'

 

[the toad]

i don't mean to be that guy but he did say he doesn't think the exact number matters, so calling him out on the precise numbers he's given doesn't make much sense. i think he's just using them all as a way of saying a fuck load of pills in the US are shit.

jus' sayin'

This is nearly my same argument, he says its not a precise number and then gives a precise number... several of them actually as alasdair pointed out above, then when questioned on the numbers became combative and abusive...

Saying "a fuck load of pills are crap" is a fact... saying "X% of pills are crap" is speculation.

Saying "how the fuck are you a admin? Seriously." Is abuse

 

[Chesh]

fair enough

 

[alasdairm]

chesh, thanks for the post.

the point at the core of the discussion is that we should be concerned about discussing these issues as accurately as possible. if we want to be taken seriously as a harm-reduction resource - indeed if we want to actually be serious about the harm reduction work we are doing - we need to ground the discussion in fact whenever we can.

when we speculate and fabricate information, the whole foundation of our work is shaky. we should never be afraid to back up the claims we make and we certainly shouldn't insult somebody simply for asking us to substantiate a claim that we're making. i believe we should set the bar a little higher when we ask for an explanation, than "it's obvious, dick".

thoughts?

alasdair

 

[Original Nuttah]

Wow I feel lucky for living in the UK, I've only ever had bad stuff once and I get my MDMA from randomers at raves/festivals 9 out of 10 times. But reading all this is making me paranoid about getting some RC crap, think I'm gonna have to invest in a test kit aha...

 

[Chesh]

Wow I feel lucky for living in the UK, I've only ever had bad stuff once and I get my MDMA from randomers at raves/festivals 9 out of 10 times. But reading all this is making me paranoid about getting some RC crap, think I'm gonna have to invest in a test kit aha...

yeah i had shit stuff one time, and the only reason i didn't take it (flushed that shit down the toilet) is because i tested it. that stuff ruined everyone else's night because no one really cared when i said it wasn't actually md so they still took it, and it was BZP.

so yeah mate it's worth it to get a test kit, trust.

chesh, thanks for the post.

the point at the core of the discussion is that we should be concerned about discussing these issues as accurately as possible. if we want to be taken seriously as a harm-reduction resource - indeed if we want to actually be serious about the harm reduction work we are doing - we need to ground the discussion in fact whenever we can.

when we speculate and fabricate information, the whole foundation of our work is shaky. we should never be afraid to back up the claims we make and we certainly shouldn't insult somebody simply for asking us to substantiate a claim that we're making. i believe we should set the bar a little higher when we ask for an explanation, than "it's obvious, dick".

thoughts?

alasdair

this is all getting way too deep for me im afraid.

 

[alasdairm]

the tl;dr version is:

- let's stick to the facts instead of making stuff up.

- if we don't know something for sure, let's say "i don't know for sure"

- is we make a claim and we're asked to support it, let's do just that



alasdair

 

[Chesh]

i'm cool with that

if i don't know specifics i'll just say something along the lines of "it seems as if..." or "i reckon..." etc.

 

[blah blah]

The title of this thread says it all. There are some that seem to think that this title contradicts the actual reality of whats going on in the e scens today. This title however says it all. The e scene in the states is in a dire crisis. Based on percentages alone on pr the east coast is running at a 90% bunk rate whereas the nation as a whole is running most likely at 70% bunk rate. Is it just me and folley that see this problem or is it seen by the masses?

IN MY OPINION...

I am in 100% agreement with the rough percentages. They're goddamn close enough to get a good depiction of the State of the Scene and squabbling over semantics and perfect scientific numbers for me, if I were a noob, would not help me more to realize the hightened necessity to obtain a test kit in the states as opposed to other countries.

I also understand the mods stance in wanting factual numbers because that's their job. However, after watching this thread and the other pissing contest thread unfold (great pic btw SE), the air surrounding the mods (not all) was that of prodding and pushing for a reaction. Like a fucked up kid jabbing a caged dog with a stick to get it to bark louder, so he could then in turn smack it with that stick for barking too loud.

I had a big ol novel typed up last night chock full of factual numbers and experience based opinions, but the more I read it back to myself, the more I could see my words being twisted and warped back around on me in order to get a reaction. I chose not to bark.

Chesh, me personally, I avoid threads like these like the plague, but thought I'd poke my head over the hill at the leprosy colony here for a minute. Most strongly based opinions, even worded in rule abiding formats, that rub against the grain of the popular consensus tend to be met with unpleasant and belittling "debate." Hence why CE&P is no place for a chap like me.

The State of the Scene IS in a dire state. When my hounds are unleashed to find the best goodies, they go with a very specific scent to look for. More often than not they sniff out sour shit that is easily recognizeable as most dogs have already come across that shit (ime, shit gets caught VERY quickly after its emergence and no shit gets missed given enough time) and have put out the word to avoid.

I have personally posted 24 reports. 7 of which contained ZERO MDxx. That number doesn't even come close to the number that were instantly passed on just hearing their print. I consider myself knowledgeable and well fortuned enough to be very selective and even in my current standing in the scene, I still step in shit. So giving a noob who, IN MY ASSUMPTIONS, knows very little, some pretty accurate ballpark figures to stress the necessity of testing is a job well done on Folley's and Yanker's part in the name of harm reduction, all semantics and prior thread beefs aside. Yes Folley jumped around with numbers, every one of which still drove home the urgency of testing, but he worded them incorrectly and against some others' tastes. I do agree, IN MY OPINION, that it's more critical now than ever before to be testing your goods and an even more critical necessity if you're in the US. All simply based on my personal observations of the American samples submitted on PR and edata, which I also BELIEVE TO BE, the whole of mass produced, widely circulating presses. I've yet to come across a new press that has either not been reported on, or reported on within a weeks time of my first hearing of it and my searching hounds go a looooooong ways out.

Thank you all for your time and TEST YO SHIT CUZ 70% (-/+5% margin of error) OF AMERICAN PRESSES ARE BUNK!! in my supremely humble and obsequious OPINION! *shrugs and winces waiting for the blow* Please don't smack me for barking.

 

[the toad]

^I wish i could take credit for the "pissing contest" pic but severely etarded posted it, i also understand your opinion on the percentage subject, i said many times that i thought his estimates were accurate but still estimates. He was having none of it and this has been an ongoing problem since before i even became a moderator, i just used to ignore ot most of the time..

Thank you for your input blah blah, i honestly appreciate hearing what everyone thinks

 

[Folley]

He was having none of it

Complete and utter BULL SHIT. The ONLY THING I've been saying in this thread was that the fucking exact numbers DON'T MATTER, because I NEVER SAID ONE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT.



You people even fucking said that you can't fucking find the exact number of fucking pills going around, so how the fucking FUCK do you expect me to fucking post an accurate fucking number?

I can't, won't, and don't need too.


AGAIN, my fucking first post never even fucking had an exact fucking number in it, so why the fucking fuck are you fucking still even talking about that? What the fucking fuck is your fucking problem?


I've even said that number was probably wrong, the ONLY FUCKING THING that matters in this discussion, is that there are a TONS more piperazine pills out on the market than MDMA pills.

You can't debate this, and you all agree with me, SO WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT?



You didn't like how I told that kid he had piperazines, OK, fine. I can see that, even though what he did take was pipes, you don't want me to "guarantee" it.



But how the fucking fuck are you still fucking talking about this fucking complete fucking petty ass bull shit? I was having none of it... BECAUSE I NEVER FUCKING SAID IT.

My first post was an ESTIMATE. It was worded LIKE AN ESTIMATE, and was NEVER portrayed as a 100% true fact. In fact, I was wrong. I underestimated the current scene, apparently I'm not "scaremongering" good enough!




I see that Harm Reduction is not a value held at Bluelight anymore. This is just you fuckers wanting to look good and seem right. I'll take my postings else where.

I'm not going to have my 100% true HR devalued just because you don't like the way I said it.

 

[the toad]

Folley can we please drop this?

Im not trying to bust your balls... if you say "ill try to be better at not speculating" then its over... ill say "thank you i appreciate it"... and if you do it in he future ill give you a friendly reminder not to speculate... if you say "oops sorry" then it will be over then too... if you keep arguijg about how its ok to speculate if your riht or its ok to specupate to scare ppl into buying test kits im going to keep infracting you... if you get combative and abusive i will do the same...

All i want is harm redution advice to be based entirely on fact... if you wanna speculate then start a thread... this is not negotiable.

I understand your upset and i want you to be happy and a part of bluelight, as i say, most of your advice is good adgice and i often agree and commend your responses or part of your responses, but any time i give any constructige criticism im picking on you

Please try and calm down a bit, you can pm me and ask me anything if you honestly dont understand what im asking... i really done want you to feel wronged but any social activity demands compromise to run smoothly...

Ive compromised many hours explaining myself and answering your questions, if i was looking for a rason to pick on you or ban you permanently it would not be hard... all id have to do is check a couple boxes, type "abuse" and click a button... would take me about 1 minute...

I want you to stick aroujd because most of your advice is great and your dedication has not gone unnoticed, your only problem is your hardheaded and your smart... if we can cure the hardheadedness then youll be able to apply all the smarts you have toward becoming more educated...

Smart means you can look at things and "figure them out", smart people ask a lot of questions, they make many assumptions than dumb people... they are good at recognizing patterns and thinking about ways to change things or fix problems they see with new idea they have because they want to improve things...

That being said, i believe most everyone is fairly smart at birth, "kids say the darndest things"... why? Because they are curious, they want to learn, kids love showing and telling things and they love being taught, they dont look at life in wrong or right they look at it as "show me how/why/what/etc." Usually when they show off their newfound knowledge they also ask questions...

Most notably, and applicable here... kids dont get angry when you show them that their information is incorrect... as long as you show them why and show them the right way and make sure they understand it... they may not believe you however because perhaps their incorrect information came from a source they trust more... perhaps their parent told them the "orange juice lsd man" story and theres no way that you can prove something DIDNT happen, you can only prove that you cant find evidence of something happening... in this case i agree to disagree based on lack of evidence... i suggest they perhaps look into things or do their own research and encourage them to ask questions about anything that they feel needs more explanation, and i also ask them questions about their beliefs, if their answers make sense then i take them into consideration and occasionally learn that perhaps their view or belief is more convincing than mine and adopt their view, occasionally their view is entirely contradictory or based on myth or fallacy, in which case i disregard their view and keep my own.. but most commonly i find a few things from each argument that are speculatory along with the majority of each argument based on reality and mostly the same as most peoples...

This is where smart people get into trouble, i know because i used to do the same thing... they go to school and work and are rewarded for being right and "punished/embarrased" for being incorrect... the problem is that you only have to be "mostly right" 90-100%-A, 80-90%-B, 70-80%-C, 60-70%-D, <60%-F...

Smart kids get bored however when they notice that many "idiots" around them dont get lots of stuff that seems simple to them... yet they seem to be rewarded more in school, teacher will work special with them one on one and make "you" do extra work till the "idiot" finally either gets it or just memorizes it from doing it 1000 times, or they put off your questions because theyre "more advanced" or they simply dont know the answer and are too busy helping "idiot" to explain more...

So the smart kids get extra work and slowed down and essentially punished for their skills and drive to be better while the oher kids are rewarded and given special assistance... this really becomes irritating to the smart kids when grades come out, they get an A or B in most subjects, but then the "idiots" that you are much better than in class have the same grades... and you know why, its because most of the questions on the quiz or exam were multiple choice and the teacher worked them all out the day before on the board in the "practice test" and you knew them all anyways... and with multiple choice answers you realize you can know very little about the question yet still guess the correct answer most of the time...

I know your smart, i know that you can guess pretty well and your "mostly right" and generally "pretty accurate" with both your facts and guesses... the next step is to deprogram you from this "my guess was right tho" attitude... i want you to be right because you have the facts to prove it, not because nobody can prove it wrong...

And if they present counter facts i suggest you consider that they are simply trying to get to the bottom of something and compare all the evidence, theyre not "trying to prove you wrong" they wanna learn more about your idea or they dont understand or believe what your saying and are asking more about it before they make their decision, this is where you can either answer the questions or you cant...

This is where education is important, im not talking about k-12 education im talking about being rewarded for asking questions and being able to learn as fast and as much as you want, to be able to truly think outside the box and come up with new good ideas you have to be able to realize that being right requires you to be able to identify, admit, and examine your mistakes and realize that everything in life has errors and imperfections and unknowns... education is taking being smart, and instead of looking for ways to shortcut/stereotype/generalize/assume/convince/bullshit/intimidate/guarantee/insult/degrade/condescend/etc...

I want you to realize that, first, i understand your a 16 year old dude and you dont lead some priveledged life and i understand how you gotta sometimes be a badass and not show any weakness... your a street kid and you know what it takes to get by on the street... i dont have any problem with that and actually a lot of respect and empathy and experience having to deal with the same thing... ive held a cardboard sign begging for money in front of 7-11 on santa monica blvd, ive jacked off for porn movies, ive let old men blow me for 100 bucks, ive gotten food stamps to feed myself... and i could have just gone back home but my family was/is insane and living on the street was better... but the street is tough too and you gotta learn to be quick and never show weakness or get proved wrong because youll get fucked over and taken advantage of...

Second i want you to understand, bluelight is not the street, bluelight is harm reduction, bluelight is here to cut the bullshit everyone gets fed on the mean streets... DARE officers, teachers, lawmakers, police, pharmaceutical companies, doctors etc, all say illegal drugs are more dangerous than they really are... conversely, most people selling and consuming illegal drugs say that they are safer than they really are... neither side is necessarily lying, they only know what theyve been told... bluelight is to find out whats fact and whats embellishment

 

[Folley]

I dropped this days ago.

But you and alasdair keep putting words in my mouth, I won't stand for that.


Saying that a good 3/4 of pills is HARDLY speculation. I may not have EXACT numbers to back it up, but every piece of evidence shown has proved it so far.

 

[the toad]

Well then lets start from here... if it happens more ill point it out nicely... you are free to ask me if you dont understand why, your free to ask me for advice on how to rectify it, you dont have to say im right or your wrong, i will bend over backwards to assist any bluelight member that feels wronged, or is confused or frustrated, feels they are being mistreated, bullied, misunderstood, harassed, condescended or treated unfairly in any way...

You and anyone else can pm me if you wish to speak in private or fear i will "misquote", "twist the truth" "edit your comments to 'silence' or 'slander'" "try and make them look bad/wrong in public" etc...

I always send a pm if i have a problem with something "infractable" and suggest other ways of making their argument without breaking the rules and regulations of the BlueLight User Agreement, and avoid an infraction.

I sent you pm's both about abuse and speculation and explained what was expected of you. I said that i didnt feel that you were wrong in your estimations, motives, or dedication but that your only "fault" or "error" was that you disregard any criticism or advice or corrections or questions and become hostile and confrontational and think theyre trying to make you look bad, and that admitting you dont know something or dont have rock solid answer or hypothesis or that revising/adjusting/updating/retracting anything about your answer or hypothesis or facts makes you look bad/stupid/wrong/etc... it doesnt! It takes a big man to stand up and fight for what they believe even in the face of criticism, controversy and public opinion... but it takes a bigger man to look empathicly at criticism, advice, and suggestions and learn that the grey area between "right and wrong", there is often as many "correct" answers as "incorrect" and more questions without "rock solid answers" and that questions are just ways of learning

If i ask someone how to know if ecstasy is good or bad and someone tells me i need to reagent test because 90% of pills are bunk and dont contain any at all my next step would be to try and verify that number, i would ask them how they found the info so i could check it, if they have a source that checks out and jives with what they said then awesome, now i know where to find that info, and can cross reference it and review it and cite it in the future and know the answer... if they dont have a source, or their source was "a friend, parent, or they remember reading it someplace, or they say "everyone knows that" or "prove me wrong" i tend to ASSUME they dont really know a lot about the issue and may check and see if i can find some proof or evidence of their claim... if they state that they dont know or arent sure or dont remember exactly or that its a hunch or gut feeling or based on their experiences then i love sharing wih them that hey are right and thank them for helping me discover the answer i was looking for and want to congratulate them on their assistance and share what i found so they can be "more sure" and "not have to guess or speculate in the future...

If theyre a jerk about it or assure me theyre right and give their opinion and guess a number to try and make their guess sound mathematical or scientific, ortell me something is a fact or quote statistics as facts or why im wrong to not immediately agree with them or not trust their assumptions or that they have been "around it forever and their incapable of being wrong, or try to prove themselves correct based on me being incorrect or unable to disprove their claim... then i still go out and research and ask other people WHO HAVE A SOLID REPUTATION FOR HONESTY AS WELL AS ADMITTING THEY DONT KNOW WHEN THEY DONT AND TRY TO FIND THE CORRECT ANSWER NO MATTER WETHER IT PROVES THEM RIGHT, WRONG, OR A LITTLE OF BOTH, but are more interested in giving good advice and being correct as opposed to just proving themselves infallable or impressing people with their knowledge... and you can bet that when i find facts and evidence that are vastly different from the guy who speculated and couldnt prove it i am going to present it publicly and in a way that shows them to be incorrect and proves it, if there is no proof or verifiable convincing evidence them i do the same thing to show that they can assume all they want but their argument is based in speculation and the answer is that there isnt a "known answer" and that speculation isnt a reasonable answer to a question regarding facts... i do the same if i discover that their answer is speculation and happens to be correct (or mostly or nearly correct) yet when i asoed them for proof they didnt have it or got pissy... i ask them to explain themselves again, then i ask them how they can be sure, then say things to try to get them to contradict or change their stoty or to speculate more "facts" that are incorrect and then provide the sources and evidence to prove that they are more interested in "making their point" or "they embellished a little because its ok for the right reasons"

This is what it came down to when i simply suggested we label facts with links, citations, sources or the full report of your personal scientific studies and methods... your allowed to speculate and say you dont know but offer some insight or theories and suggestions of where to get information for them to speculate on and educate themselves with more information

If you do that and actually listen and examine other views and how they are both isimilar to yours and how their different and then looking at being not neccesarily wrong just "hey i was almost entirely right and they helped me discover and rectify the incorrect part, now im "more correct" or "now i can say without speculation and be able to answer with more confidence in the future"...

I guarantee ithat if i and other staff members didnt like you or wanted to get rid of you or piss you off, you would be gone....

we all see a smart, knowledeable, dedicated, compassionate, eager to help, strong willed, very active bluelighter that contribute a LOT of valuable advice, facts, questions and answers and thinks outside the box and isnt discouraged easily...

These are a wonderful combination of assets to both harm reduction education on bluelight as well as being desireable in general, i wish there were 20... hell 100 more bluelighters as dedicated and that contribute as much as you do here... if you chill out and listen to what I am saying you will realize that i want to keep you around and i want you to help me and everyone else get more educated, and you do a lot of that already and are fairly respected and known on this site to be correct in general... that makes your speculations and guesses and estimates seem more credible (hence more DANGEROUS) even if you say "about" or "nobody knows exactly but im almost certain that", or "i can pretty much guarantee" then they believe you and figure if nobody else has a better answer or even if they do and theres one user with say 300 posts and the other with 4400 posts they figure that person wih thousands of posts probably has much more experience and has obviously been a member forever and has more experience and knowledge of the subject... especially if theyre new to the scene and dont even know he basics... their dealer, whom they either know personally or trusted enouh to do business and they were lied to by that person. They come here to find out what was bullshit and what is true. We need to not contaminate our excellent reputaion by making assumptions and hypothrsis and presenting them as evidence of proof... we need to be able to be correct and verifiable, or say we dont have the answer, or that you can only theorize basex on the information then share your hypothesis and what you based it on and where you got your info... you will be able to answer every question but youll help people learn and understand that we wont bullshit them and that they can trust us

 

[helium-4]

I don't buy x pills, but I do/have bought plenty of high quality of molly in the past 3 or 4 years. I don't bother with pills as on the east coast molly was sooooo abundant there wasn't any point to. I'm not willing to throw my cash on a pill that I don't know the content of.

 

[yanker]

I have a question. Bluelight and pillreports most of the information on these 2 sites is speculation. Whenever we see a report that's not tested and follows with a bad report everybody and I mean including every moderator always says there pipes and lists it as such in the report. If speculation is so taboo around here then how can every pill that's not tested that isn't mdxx be classified as a piperzine without taking a specific pipe test on it? So technically pillreports is not really a database for pills its a database of speculation. So its safe to assume that every pill that is proven to not contain mdxx will just be classified as unknown?

 

[the toad]

Im not discouraging speculation, im discouraging presenting it as "the answer" to a question about harm reduction...

 

[yanker]

But speculating on the high end of bunk pills is in the name of harm reduction. Almost like how fake molly reports are allowed to stay up on pillreports where good molly reports get taking down. U see my point? If we were putting the numbers on the low end then yes I can understand that it would not be harm.reduction but insisting people test everything because of the high amount of bunk pills is clearly in the name of harm reduction. Idk I personally didn't think I was off on my numbers and I thought I was perfectly right listing them for the specific reasons of harm reduction. But ill let it b and move on with the rest of my life.