my benzo withdrawal seems to be stuck, need help some1 w/ experience

WalkenTalk · Mar 7, 2012

Hi,

thanks for reading first of all!

This is for people that have experience with Benzos and specifically with getting off them. I'd appreciate any help :D

First: my current daily 'stats' are: 60mg Mirtazapine, 300mg Venlafaxine, 50mg Valium and 4 or 8mg Klonopin, no street drugs in over a year.

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I have as so many others developed a pretty strong benzo addiction over the past 4 years.

The last year my daily dose would be as prescribed 2mg, then 4mg, then 6mg.

I say 'as prescribed' because I never really based my actual intake on the amount that my doctor recommended, although I did tell him that I was taking more than that 'baseline number'.

So I'd guess at the end of the year I was at 8mg/day with some days (not many, maybe once a week going up to 16mg - never higher because it wasn't pleasant anymore.

At that point I didn't have any anxiety anymore but was just trying to get high.

So then last December I started with the tapering process which was something that was always worrying me because obviously I'd know that this couldn't go on forever (I'm 27).

I read the Ashton Manual several times, discussed it with my physician who (sadly) didn't know it, but was on board, so I started switching over to Valium and then tapering off that, which was pretty successful up until two weeks ago.

In about two/three months I got down to 55mg Valium or 2,75mg Klonopin which is where I stayed for about three weeks.

Normally I'd feel better after the first days of reduction, partly (I guess) because the antidepressants have greater influence, but since the switch to 55mg I only felt worse every day, although still functional, but it had came to a point where I was seriously considering going back on Klonopin because I couldn't stand it anymore.

Then gladly, my worst day coincided with my psychiatrist's appointment, whom I told everything (totally honest), at which point he basically said that he didn't know what to do for me anymore, since I haven't been feeling better and adding antidepressants would be pointless (maxed) and there's nothing to substitute benzos.

He did, although, recommend a doctor that specializes in addictions, I have yet to talk to him (this friday) and ask if he is knowledgeable on Benzos and such which I'm not sure of.

After basically having my psychiatrist 'give up' on me I gave me a 'free pass' on whatever Klonopin I still had in my drawer and am taking now 4 to 8mg a day along with the Valium (I try to not break the taper which is why I want to keep the Valium even if I almost don't notice it, but at least in my head I can differentiate it from the Klonopin which is for recreation/abuse and has nothing to do with my tapering process, so that I can eliminate the Kpin easier afterwards).
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My specific questions would be:

1) Should I have started at a higher dose of Valium and taper off even more slowly (although the times I reduced the dosage were when I actually did feel good for several days in a row)

2) Should I have just powered-through those days and hope for a change (sadly I fell off the wagon after my psychiatrists appointment)

3) Has anyone had a similar experience?

4) Would weed help me? It's illegal where I live and I probably only would get street-grade, but still, does it help?

5) How would I progress from here, if the addiction doctor does not know about benzo withdrawal (I live in Argentina, it's not a terriby common thing) - my idea would be to get rid of the Klonopin at the end of the week and increase the Valium to about maybe 70mg and start the tapering again..

Thanks for any input! After my psychiatrist broke up with me I don't know where to go for help, he even runs an institute that specializes in anxiety disorders :/ So I'm glad for any advice!

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qwe · Mar 8, 2012

1) Should I have started at a higher dose of Valium and taper off even more slowly (although the times I reduced the dosage were when I actually did feel good for several days in a row)

if i lower my benzo dose, i notice a lifting of CNS depression (aka i feel better) for about a week... then i realize that the "cognitive fog" has set in by then, and all of the psychosomatic anxiety crap... you need to give dose adjustments a lot of time.

2) Should I have just powered-through those days and hope for a change (sadly I fell off the wagon after my psychiatrists appointment)

no, i think you're right to follow the ashton manual. if you feel like shit, that needs to be addressed. there are chemical and nonchemical options (besides benzos obviously), look into both.

3) Has anyone had a similar experience?

i don't use antidepressants because they give me anxiety, but yeah it's a bitch being dependent on these little pills.

4) Would weed help me? It's illegal where I live and I probably only would get street-grade, but still, does it help?

weed can both help and hurt. it can cause racing thoughts and anxiety, things you don't need. but it can also help sleep and relaxation and peace and depression, things you will need.

sort of like most meds the doctors will throw at you. EG gabapentin (which makes my mood swing even though it's supposed to stabilize it, and gives me racing thoughts even though it's supposed to be anxiolytic).

5) How would I progress from here, if the addiction doctor does not know about benzo withdrawal (I live in Argentina, it's not a terriby common thing) - my idea would be to get rid of the Klonopin at the end of the week and increase the Valium to about maybe 70mg and start the tapering again..

find an online group recovering from benzo addiction perhaps? you have to talk about it. (but talking about it to people who don't understand will often backfire... be careful there, they won't believe many of the things you feel).

if you can't find a doc that will prescribe meds to help, keep searching. clonidine, gabapentin, propranolol, are all possible options, but it will be rough.

most important thing imo: lower all responsibilities. you'll be in a fog...know your limits.

DexterMeth · Mar 8, 2012

Ya, I would refer to the Ashton manual as well.

Cannabis can be very unreliable for this, but if you can get an indica strain, that might help a lot. Think, purple (I guess).

The PAWS from this can last up to 2 years. A single relapse will start you back over in this respect.

This is the hardest thing to do by far.

Don't turn to booze. That is the best advice I can give you.

Good luck.

Missykins · Mar 8, 2012

You should know that the Ashton manual is not considered to be a state-of-the-art medical reference. I find that many do-it-yourself types refer to it, but not many physicians.

An addiction specialist will be more than able to wean you off your benzodiazepines. I agree with DexterMeth, don't turn to alcohol or marijauna to cope with benzodiazepine withdrawal, work with your physician instead.

Your appointment is Friday? Who will manage your other psych meds?

xHippiexchildx · Mar 8, 2012

I totally sympathize for you OP. I've been off suboxone for 3 months and i'm still going through PAWS. Although I'm sure Benzo withdrawal is much worse.

If you need to talk, message me.

Kerrigan · Mar 8, 2012

As the others said, using other drugs will just basically give you another crutch, and you're already a little crowded (you have, what, five or six right now..?) so do this: taper off 2mg at a time; ask your doctor to prescribe some of your diazepam in 2mg pills, which are far easier to drop down on than 5mg, and then just slowly feel out what's best. Stop trying to get high and keep the Klonopin level.

The 2mg pills can be cut in half and so that'll help, too: you could just go down 1mg every couple of weeks. It's a long process and it fucks you up and you've only got a painful, painful mindrapery ahead of you, but I wish you good luck.

WalkenTalk · Mar 10, 2012

Hi guys!

I totally forgot about this thread and thought I wasn't getting any replies because I didn't get any mail and when I checked I was like wow!! Thanks so much for your support!!!!!

Well, actually I'm quite happy right now. The doctor seemed VERY professional, the way he described what happened due to my benzo abuse was very detailed and well explained, things like gaba receptor degradation and how to cope, kinda blew my mind, I usually think that I'm on the same level as to what happens to my brain when talking to a psych and sometimes I'll even get angry at them for their ignorance (one doc told me quite literally that ecstasy squishes my brain out of it's juice and she cannot treat me if I take it because of that), whereas he told me that I probably know more of this stuff than many psychiatrists here in Argentina ^^

Also he runs an addiction center for all kinds of abuse problems and according to him has effectively treated many patients with the same problem as I have.

Now the thing that kinda gave me additional hope was that instead of saying something according the lines I should try harder or start over, he basically checked for any current or past side-effects and meds I take/took, did a quick 'personality' check (as in my current situation in regards to drugs, he asked me why and how I quit cocaine - maybe to see what kind of addictive personality I have, or something along the lines),
and then went into giving me his check-list as to how this has to be treated, he explained each of the drugs and why they are necessary for me in a very professional way, addressed my concerns with patience and importantly didn't let me 'coerce' him into changing his plan for treatment, for example I told him that pregabalin is newer and better than gabantin but he answered that while that's true both are necessary because they are not quite the same..

Well it just seemed that he really really knew his shit in short, also he gave me the number of a doctor that supervises my treatment and told me that I can call her anytime and she'll answer (I did call her today at 9:30 am and she *did* answer, it was because I couldn't get one of the drugs because they don't sell them here in my area..)

Ok, basically here is what my treatment is gonna look like (I'm going to start a blog once I start and hopefully it'll work and hopefully it might help other people to have more confidence and maybe to learn from my experience)

1) Reduce the Benzos drastically, but maintain a baseline (to avoid convulsions), in my case 40mg/day of Valium, so that my gaba receptor recovers quickly
2) Add a shitload of other drugs to help with side-effects, especially some that bind with other 'healthy' gaba receptors than the benzo one, in order to smoothen the process, as to the obvious concern to add that many new drugs he replied while that's true, it's the way to go, and with weekly supervision by him or his colleague it won't pose a problem.
3) Check again within a week

Here's my withdrawal list:

CLONIDINE
PREGABALIN
GABAPENTIN
MEMANTINE
DIAZEPAM
QUETIAPINE

I think for the first time I actually feel that I can blindly follow his instructions, actually I feel kind of inspired :D

Since I couldn't get Clonidine (they don't sell it here and it has to be prepared I'll start the treatment/blog in a couple of days)

Thanks again for your kind words and please spread the word that Benzo's are evil, I knew it from the beginning but for someone suffering from anxiety taking them is such a life changing experience, the lies that 2mg/4mg/6mg/8mg a day is *not that bad* get easier to swallow everyday until it's too late.

Dave · Mar 10, 2012

Wow; it's great to hear that you're getting such excellent care! Benzo discontinuation, especially from such high and combined doses, is so tricky that I'm glad that a) you stuck with the pros on this and b) that the pros that you stuck with actually know their stuff.

Good call on the recovery Blog too; doing that has helped many people out. Best of luck to you!

DexterMeth · Mar 10, 2012

Benzos are not evil. Your doctor was just irresponsible and casting off the blame on a highly effective class of drugs.

WalkenTalk · Mar 12, 2012

DexterMeth said:
Benzos are not evil. Your doctor was just irresponsible and casting off the blame on a highly effective class of drugs.

No, I'm pretty sure they're evil, I've checked.

Thanks for your input though

DexterMeth · Mar 12, 2012

There is no need for that. I was on 16mg of clonazepam for 4 years.

bagochina · Mar 12, 2012

2) Should I have just powered-through those days and hope for a change (sadly I fell off the wagon after my psychiatrists appointment)

Personally I think this is the best option. If I followed the ashton manual I would probably still be on a fucking taper, no thanks. I was taking klonopin & ativan for 8 yrs in high doses. Dropped myself down to a manageable dosage (2mg K / 1mg A) in a couple months, checked into a detox (which greatly helped me not to take pills which I most likely would have done on the outside). The real w/d did start till I was out of in-patient care but it was sooo much easier to control my intake.

I tried to add other drugs to help with w/d, nothing helped (Lyrica/neurontin) nothing helped in fact it seemed to make symptoms worse. Luckily I had no obligations (work/school/etc.) and was able to keep my head down and concentrate on recovery. I am just over 2 yrs clean from benzos (and opiates) and i definitely still get rebound anxiety. I have just had to learn how to deal with it without masking it with medication.

Best thing in the world is being free from that nightmare.

qwe · Mar 12, 2012

^ the thing is, the faster you taper, the longer/more intense rebound anxiety you get. personally, i think that even the ashton manual may be too fast.

DexterMeth · Mar 12, 2012

What is the taper schedule in Ashton again?
Generally speaking, you don't want to taper at the same rate the whole time. You start high and then go lower.. Like when I was at 16mg, I cut down to 8mg overnight, then down .25 ever 2 weeks, and even that was very rapid.

qwe · Mar 13, 2012

here is one sample (they have different plans for different half-life drugs and different doses)

Withdrawal from clonazepam (Klonopin) 3mg daily with substitution of diazepam (Valium)

NSFW:

aka, a long fuckin time -.-

i feel almost lucky to be grandfathered in to this med, having been prescribed it long term before many docs knew of its potential to be habit forming. it's a useful anxiolytic.

but over all, i feel stuck on my dose (2mg/day). if i try to taper, my short term memory becomes non existent.

my benzo withdrawal seems to be stuck, need help some1 w/ experience

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