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Muslim BL'ers

Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic are not dead. Aramaic is.
 
bpayne said:
that is not the "original" Language
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Lol, I really recommend you spare yourself the humiliation and actually do some research.

Arabic was the original language of the Koran. It is far from dead.

Samael: You'd be surprised. Aramaic is also far from dead. The more than 3 million assyrians worldwide still speak it.

Binge: it means "In the name of God, most merciful, most beneficent."
 
humilation on the internet only come to people who care about the internet, ie, nerds sorry I could be wrong about everything i ever said online, and it wouldn't humilate anyone except for the know it all who proved me wrong and only then in the real world
 
Binge Artist said:
I doubt there are many muslim bl'ers, because they don't do drugs.
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I knew a devout Muslim crackhead from Ghana.

He thought his addiction was Allah punishing him for some nasty shit he did in his youth. He never went into details but he seemed pretty disturbed by his past.
 
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"Strong drink and games of chance are very sinful", is the most common English translation of the one and only Sura in the Quran that links Islam with abstinence. Jamshyd will have to provide us with the more correct translation of the original Arabic, but the point is, its interpretation varies, and did so much more before the spread of Wahhabism. There used to be some Muslim groups that even allowed beer ("weak drink"), but not liquor. At the other extreme, some interpret it to mean all intoxicants.

To say no Muslims use drugs is hardly accurate, in any case.

The long-standing religious belief survey in P&S has a handful of votes for Islam.
 
^ If you can give me the number of the Sura (I forgot it), I can certainly try. But IIRC, I believe your translation is not far off.

That said, in the grand scheme of things, a sober (heh) examination of Islamic law reveals (quite sensibly) that the "sins" of alcohol and pork and gambling are very, very minor compared to others. But sub-humans like Wahhabists and other extremists tend to build their lives around these tiny thing, neglecting the bigger picture - if they're even aware of it.

You'll find a lot of Muslims not eating a certain brand of chocolate because it has a chemical that is also present in pork, and yet ask them about, for example, which of the four main Shaira's they follow, or what they think of Al-Ghazali's interpretation of law, and they'd stare at you blankly.

Now, if you look at the more interesting Islamic societies, you'd be very surprised about attitudes toward alcohol. For most central-asian muslims (except maybe Uzbeks and Afghans), vodka is as common as water. Yet, as I mentioned elsewhere, these people are rather devout Muslims following a syncreticism of antiquated Islam and Tengrism. Interestingly enough, the other day I learnt that Kazakhs actually don't eat pork, despite the vodka.

In Bosnia, they brew more than one types of liquor as national drinks, with Plum Brandy at 45% alcohol content. Yet Bosnians are known for their devoutness and they follow a heavily Ottoman-influenced brand of Islam.

As for Muslims and drugs, I have only one word for the doubters: Afghanistan.
 
^ The whole anti-intoxicant thing in Wahhabi regimes strikes me as pretty much the same thing as gay marriage in the American Bible Belt: a moral boogeyman. Something for people to focus their concern on, to distract from the real ethical atrocities going on around them. It gives followers and promoters of these so-called divine laws an excuse to feel smug and righteous, even when they live their lives in ways that hurt others.

The explanation I've heard for why Abrahamic religions other than Christianity ban pork, is that pigs destroyed the fragile Middle Eastern farmland by eating the roots of grass and killing it, unlike sheep and cows, who only eat the part that's above ground. Also, in times of starvation, pigs will turn violent towards humans, and use their considerable wits to compete with them for unusual sources of food. Sheep and cows won't.

I've also heard the ban on alcohol in most Middle Eastern faiths (other than Judaism) attributed to geographical practicality. In arid places, the dehydration alcohol brings about not only threatens the survival of the individual, but the group as well: It makes it more likely that a drinker will take more than his share of water, a resource that's commonly rationed there.

Most peoples who dwell in hot places, I've noticed, do not have a prominent place for alcohol in their social cultures. Especially places that are both hot and dry. Cultures of frequent heavy drinking seem to be almost completely confined to places that get a good deal of cold weather.
 
maloxx said:
ever heard of hashish? or opium?
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I'm pretty sure all drug use(including alcohol) is strictly forbidden by islam and punishable by having both your wrists chopped off or something barbaric like that.

In saying that, yes im a muslim extremest and i advocate the use of jihad.:|
 
I know that if I were a Muslim I'd be more than a little offended by the whole "Jihad is a purely spiritual struggle! It's only modern extremists who have perverted its meaning!"

Just completely inaccurate, a totally modern interpretation tossed around by Liberals who want to make Islam into something other than what it is. Kinda like people who think Christianity is inherently feminist, or teaches acceptance of homosexuality, etc. etc.

FWIW I have a good friend who is a *very* devout Muslim and he loves smoking weed. I think there's conflict between the Sunni and Shi'a as to whether the prohibition of alcohol applies only to alcohol or to all recreational drugs. For him? He once told me "in heaven, there is a giant tree of marijuana, and you could walk along it for a thousand years and not see the end." Like I said he's very devout and orthodox, not the sort of person who'd pervert a religion's teachings to fit his own biases.

P.S. He hates Jews too, but if I was a Palestinian I probably would as well :\ (don't take that the wrong way, I know that there are a lot of anti-zionist jews, but it'd be like being a black man in the jim crowe south and developing a hatred of white people. Some of the stories I've heard from him completely blow me away. Jews from Brooklyn - not exotic Oriental jews or something, Jews from our own Big Apple - coming to Palestine and literally stealing people's houses. Sickening.)
 
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MyDoor: There are 4 Suras that relate to the subject, not 1, though you did paraphrase the 1 most often cited, Sura V (5:90 to 93 to be exact).

To understand this, even in the most basic sense, one needs to understand the concept of "Abrogation." Basically, the Qu'ran was dictated ayat by ayat (sentence at a time) over a 23 year period.

Muhammed was totally illiterate by all accounts, and each ayat was dictated to 1 of at least 3 people, and then collated after Muhammed's death.

Abrogation basically holds that each subsequent ayat and Sura (sentence and verse) effectively cancels out the preceeding in cases where conflict or even outright contradiction take place.

One such subject happens to be alcohol. For those who are unaware, the word "alcohol" itself is corrupted Arabic, and it is in the Mid-East that we see the first physical evidence of deliberate alcohol fermentation and consummption. Alcohol in thre pre-Islamic era was as much a part of daily life as it was anywhere in the world, at any time.

In the ban of alochol, we need to look at all 4 verses, but primarily only 3: II (2:219), IV (4:43) and the afore mentioned (by MyDoor) V (5:90).

Sura II states that (and I will paraphrse but VERY accurately) that humankind can find both bad things AND good things in alcohol (directly echoing Jewish teachings). This is the 1st verse dealing with alcohol, and this is important to remember.

Next comes Sura IV, the 2nd verse dealing with the subject where it is forbidden to pray while drunk.

Finally we have the verse cited by MyDoor, Sura V and let me offer the correct translation in Modern English: " Listen to me Believers: Alcohol, gambling, worshipping of idols and divination* are gross abominations (onto Allah). They are the works of Satan. If you wish to be successful in life you must leave all 4 alone."

*"Divination," or "Fortune Telling" in this case is only specifically dealt with along the lines of what in the 7th Century CE/AD was the most popular form of divination, shooting arrows into the sky at a high angle, and then carefully examining the way in which they landed to predict the future and ascertain certain events of the present. There is a tiny bit of dissention as to whether-or-not this prohibition can be applied in blanket form to all soothsaying but that is only periphreal to our discussion.

Now, what of "drugs?" Alcohol is of course just as much a drug as heroin but for purposes of clarification we seem to be discussing "drugs other than alcohol."

The Classical Arabic word for "Wine" is "Kham'r." The word is rooted in the word "Khamara," which means "To Cover." Naturally one may intuit "To Cover" to signify a "Covering of The Senses," as in any intoxicating substance.

However, this is a matter of deduction and we really do not see a ban on anything other than alcohol IN THE QU'RAN. Indeed, even within the Qu'ran there is some room for interpretation as to whether-or-not ALL alcohol is banned or just wine specifically since "Kham'r" is the only word used.

In support of this idea is the afore mentioned 4th verse, Sura XVI (16:67) where even wine is specifically identified to be "From the fruits of the Date (palm) and the grape (vine)."

Now when you talk about Islamic Scripture you have to understand that while the Qu'ran IS the foundation, it is far from the only source. The "Hadit'" (Hadith is the usual English transliteration) is also very important.

Hadit' is the voluminous collection of sayings, of Muhammed and his close companions, as related by people who actually witnessed these utterings, and then related orally over the course of many generations before being committed to paper by such reknowned theologians as Bukhari and Islam (the latter a surname in this case). For any Hadit' to hold weight it must have a fully documented chain of transmission (such as: "Related by 'Aisha, wife of the prophet to," until finally recorded as "to Bukhari") IF the chain of transmission is considered believable (according to a set of exacting standards) it is held to hold extremely considerable weight.

There is one Hadit' in paticular relating to a Friday Sermon given by Muhammed, where someone asked about the prohibition of wine. This person asked about barley and honey products, as well as about the length of fermentation (per alcohol content since the idea is to question whether the ban relates to actual consumption per se or merely to levels of inebriation). This Hadit' (which I will not bother attributing other than to relate that it was compiled by Bukhari so that it is very widely accepted) holds that Muhammed said that all femrented beverages are to be given the same classification as date and grape wine.

Historically it is only within the last 600 years that we see all alcohol being held to the same classification within Islam. Prior to this period you could find Arak and similar drinks but NEVER wine.

The use of other substances is more of a culturally specific issue. Somali and Yemeni Muslims chew Khat (a plant whose fresh leaves have a high level of the alkaloid cathinone, a hard stimulant similar in ways to coca), hashish is widely consumed, and in Central Asia and Anatolia opium is widely consumed.

When you see issues relating to it like the Taliban ban in the spring of 2000 on opium, it relates more to social issues (in this case commodity manipulation for profit) than to any religious principles.

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Jam: "Central Asians and vodka..." Only because of the Stalinist "Ethnic Cleansing" that saw the population and cultural infrastructure supplanted by ethnic Russians who are famously hard drinkers. So much of the native customs have been lost and supplanted...

MyDoor: "Why pork is banned in Islam and Judaisim.": We actually studied it from a secular viewpoint in Israel, in school, and the usual theory relates to hygeine. Without refrigeration, and in feeding offal, you create a very disease prone climate. No need to discuss trichnosis.

I used to love it in prison, in the US, when black converts to Islam (a huge phenomenon) would argue that if you took a can of Coke and poured it over a pork chop,tiny worms would rush out. So cute...like Little Red Ridinghood.

Hogs were eaten by idoalters is the secondary explanation. Never heard of the "Hogs rooting through soil," and you have to also understand that our region only became very arid in the last 2000 years. We have always had deserts there, but as in the Sahara, a couple of thousands of years ago you had waterfalls. Pigs are not a factor in conversion of land, even on small tropical isles where Europeans dropped themm off as food caches. Indeed, truth be told, goats are the worst offenders. Even camels, we used to feed stones to them, they will eat anything, literally.

Muhammed was so heavily influenced by the Jewish Clans in Mecca and al Medina that he coopted Judaic principles. Most readily know that prayer did not face Mecca until after Muhammed was sure that Jews had rejected him. Until then they faced Jerusalem, the Temple Mount.

It is actually an interesting subject but I have already gotten into it (here) a tad too much.

As for the ban on alcohol having to do with climatic neccesity, totally wrong. ALL Mid-Eastern groups are heavy users wherever able (meaning out of the Mullah's prying eyes). Alcohol smuggling between Iraq, where it is legal in all places save Basra (though they are talking about making it legal there again), and Iran which bans it totally is a 400 Million US a year trade only along the Kurdi areas...

As I had mentioned, in the pre-Islamic Era even in what is now Saudi Arabia, drinking was a part of almost every household. Like many parts of Europe, fresh potable water was at a premium and fermented drink ment beverages would keep for long periods without much problem.

In fact, most people who critically examine Islam believe that the 3 main Qu'ranic verses dealing with alcohol (2,4 and 5) came in that order because had alcohol been banned outright the religion would have failed and violently so.

First they said alcohol is good and bad, then banned praying drunk before finally, almost 20 years later, saying it is banned period. Easing it in so to speak.

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BL4: The actually penalty for consuming or possesing alcohol is limited to 80 lashes from a whip but is often only 40. Of course your skin splits after only 3 or 4 lashes so...Hands are only cut off of thieves or mutilators.

Fohat: There is no difference between Sunna and Shi'a over intoxicants. The difference lies in succession of the Khalifa (Caliph). The Khalifa being the man who led Islam after the death of Muhammed. Sunni believe that any person may lead, as long as he is voted in by consensus while Shi'a hold that only a blood descendant or relative could lead.

There are minor differences that have developed since, such as the belief in Saints (actually not a minor issue) and holidays but not in the area of what is "Haram" (banned).

As for "NYC Jews stealing homes in 'Palestine'," instead of my hijacking this thread, I will ask you to examine my BL Blog , entries "House of Peace," "House of Hate" and then tell us if you still feel the same way.

Most people are very ignorant of the region and its history. JEWS FROM NYC, and I am a Jew in NYC at the moment, come from every region of the world. "Oriental Jew" and "Jew in NYC" happen to be synonymous since not only can they move to NYC, but all Jews directly descend from the original Jewish Tribes who inhabited that land (barring 1st and 2nd generation converts).

As for anti-Zionist Jews, they exist but at a low single digit percentage. Most have religious compunctions, but there are secular anti-Zionists as well. Most, in my experience, know practically nothing of their own history let alone the group now calling themselves "Palestinians" (so much for 'not hijacking the thread').

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rachamim said:
BL4: The actually penalty for consuming or possesing alcohol is limited to 80 lashes from a whip but is often only 40. Of course your skin splits after only 3 or 4 lashes so...Hands are only cut off of thieves or mutilators.
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I like the way you say only 40 lashes. As if that makes it more civilised. And you only cut off the hands of thieves and mutilators - wow that's progressive!
 
Personally I detest the religion of Islam. I find it non-sensical and barbaric but truth be told, 40 lashes as compared to amputation is, in my mind at least, a real case of leniency.
 
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