music may be older than language

[(Wordy)]

Recursions. Glitching stars tap out the spectrum.
Trees bend fractal. Ventriloquist froglife. Dub-
pond & thicket. Spiralling through. Halt at the
fire to be its student.

Fire lifts, farewells. Night masquerade: some
of the women stand winged; men wear their
animal. Plant ingesters. Shamanic bass. En-
theogen shaving story-layers.

Cosmologies, soteriologies. The death
side. n, n dimethyltryptamine hyper-
space. Discarnate remedy. Pharma-
kon. (Dis)enchanter.

An audience with. Far space, upper
time. House of the elders. Inter-
section. Coming to. Drums
begin.


Note: This poem was inspired by Entheogenesis Australis.

(c) Stu Hatton 2009
a collection of thoughs

 

[Mehm]

awesome. I love the techno tribe feel. very cool language, especially in the first stanza. thanks for the read

 

[thujone]

this drips with atmosphere, an ideal vehicle for such thoughts

 

[swilow]

Excellent stuff there, shamanic and almost stream-of-concious like. Me likes. I would remove the n,n, before the DMT, its generally not pronounced....but do as you will (shal be the whole of the blah).

I love the entheogens and hallucinogens still inspire some of our greatest works Thanks for sharing....

 

[Raz]

Weird, I thought I already replied to this....great work dude! 'men wearing their animals' creates an excellent image. This would be mad worked into a music track!

 

[artndrugsplz]

I love the language used, nice work

 

[(Wordy)]

Thanks folks, I really enjoyed writing this one, so glad you enjoyed it too.

This would be mad worked into a music track!

Yeah that would be awesome. I'm always up for collaborating across artforms too. So if anyone is keen, let me know.

 

[manic_panic]

props a plen tee

Thanks folks, I really enjoyed writing this one, so glad you enjoyed it too.



Yeah that would be awesome. I'm always up for collaborating across artforms too. So if anyone is keen, let me know.

Holy Moly! Wordy-Birdy (can I call you that? ) jk... that was F-ing Incredible!

I dont know, I just fucking feel amazing after reading that, in an inspiring kind of way. Thank you! I needed that! I will keep in touch.

oneLove1

-Reed

ps - relevant feedback regarding the title:

I'm of the belief that music is a form of language, perhaps it was the first form of (successful?) communication, or something. I don't know if you play an instrument of any kind, but once you learn to play some kind, it makes it much easier to play another type. just like with learning a new language. does that make sense?

 

[Sentience]

I think it depends on how you define language. I think language is inherent in human beings, even before there were sophisticated codified systems of it. Depending on your definition of language, the OP may or may not be correct.

 

[manic_panic]

I think it depends on how you define language. I think language is inherent in human beings, even before there were sophisticated codified systems of it. Depending on your definition of language, the OP may or may not be correct.

you make yourself a good point there. I think language comes in many... various forms, though. in terms of music, specifically e.g. a band is playing at a club or venue. they are sending to and gaining from the audience somehow. their energies toward their crowd are very often received as some kind of message and react in remarkable fashions, or postures rather. and vice versa. dancing to music it's actually a very expressive response to whatever beauty you may recognize in all of those collective sounds.

 

[Sentience]

Right. And it also depends on your definition of music

 

[manic_panic]

Right. And it also depends on your definition of music

*sigh*

Touché...

and hey, I've honestly never said that word--or felt the need to--in my entire life until now. so relax, your self-esteem should begin boosting obscenely any second now.
 

 

[dolessdrugs]

Semantics. Let's all assume that we understand what the goddamn words mean, okay? Imagine being an early prehuman without the ability to verbally communicate, that is you have no language. How would you go about communicating with others in your group, how woould you gather a group? Start banging on something rhythmically, get your brother to join, and bam! You got a tribe all dancing around to this beat bein madeby bones and a hollow tree trunk.

... Okay maybe it isn't quite so easy, but I can see how music/shared appreciation for beauty in sound would aid in the formation of effective verbal communication, language. I wonder when other art entered the fray. When was the first time someone looked at something and thought "pretty."? It blows my mind that this event really happened. No one had had that thought then someone did and spread it and now we have fine art.

 

[manic_panic]

^ yeah, dang, that's pretty amazing to think about. we've sure come a hell of a long way! nowadays, it's just too incredibly simple for us to take things for granted.

 

[Sentience]

Semantics. Let's all assume that we understand what the goddamn words mean, okay?

That is a big assumption. In this case, I think semantics makes a huge difference. Do you think that one day we were just dumb and totally without communication and then suddenly there was language? I dont think so. I think the process evolved from more subtle communication to more complex communication. So where do you draw the line? Is a baby crying a form of talking? Are grunts and hand gestures that mimic something they have seen language? Is it only language once you develop a rigid system of grammar and codified syllable representation? This is a serious question, not just idle word play. So yeah, I know what language is, and its cut and dry for us but I think there was a long phase in our progression where there was a giant gray area.

Imagine being an early prehuman without the ability to verbally communicate, that is you have no language.

You think that is how it was? I think your visualization is way off. One day we are just sitting there looking at each other with no way to communicate, and then suddenly there was language? Haha.

Those early humans and even other apes have rudimentary forms of language. They mimic things with their hands and behavior. They have 'calls' to let people know when there are predators or prey. Even other modern primates have these, so we have certainly had them as well for as long as we have been homo-sapiens. It just wasnt anything as sophisticated as the verbal and written systems of language we have now.

 

[DJmacabre]

i enjoyed reading this, especially the second stanza. very psychedelic. cheers wordy %)

 

[(Wordy)]

Thanks for the kind words. And I’m glad to see some debate sparked too.

The title is intended almost as a Zen koan, a bit like “the sound of one hand clapping”. “music may be older than language” is a hypothesis which I think highlights issues of semantics as much as it invokes questions of evolution. The phrase itself is something I overheard and jotted down in my notebook.

Semantics. Let's all assume that we understand what the goddamn words mean, okay?

Sorry, but I think that’s one of the most dangerous assumptions anyone can make.

Under the pressure of questioning, meanings break down, distinctions are stripped, everything is interrelated, all is one. Making the assumption that we understand what words mean stops us from proposing what words mean, creatively questioning what they mean. If we cease such questioning, we risk blind acceptance of the most popular / powerful view. Of course, to communicate, cooperate and get anything done in a pragmatic/everyday context, we need to have at least some agreement over what words mean.

I wonder when other art entered the fray. When was the first time someone looked at something and thought "pretty."? It blows my mind that this event really happened. No one had had that thought then someone did and spread it and now we have fine art.

Thinking about these questions blows my mind too. Do bees think ‘pretty’ when they see a flower? Does any aesthetic experience, any experience of beauty = an experience of art? Is appreciating natural wonders a form of art appreciation? We can see it this way, and why not? But what makes this experience of beauty possible?

nowadays, it's just too incredibly simple for us to take things for granted.

Totally.

I know what language is, and its cut and dry for us but I think there was a long phase in our progression where there was a giant gray area.

I don’t think it’s ‘cut and dry’ for us at all. I think it’s still very much a grey area. Perhaps the greyest.

 

[Sentience]

Great work btw. I enjoyed it.


PS, of course we have to consider semantics in a debate about language. That is what language is all about.

 

[RareForm]

Thanks folks, I really enjoyed writing this one, so glad you enjoyed it too.



Yeah that would be awesome. I'm always up for collaborating across artforms too. So if anyone is keen, let me know.

i didn't bother to see if anyone has offered, but i would be totally down to put this to music.

 

[(Wordy)]

of course we have to consider semantics in a debate about language. That is what language is all about.

Hehe. Heidegger said that language is 'the house of Being'. I'll run with that.

i didn't bother to see if anyone has offered, but i would be totally down to put this to music.

No one else has offered. What sort of music did you have in mind? I was thinking sort of a dark, tribal, ambient feel...?