Mushrooms give Wisdom & Information!?!?!

[eacoasticas]

Originally posted by mll:
If it was just "chemical reacations in your brain" you would be seeing things familar to your brain.
Why things familiar to the brain?
The feeling of shrooms is the only thing *alien* to the brain, seems natural that the trip would take that course.
Things happen and i almost instantly begin to think of Jules Verne who, sober or not, predicted things like artificial sattelites, the missing link between ape and man, spacetravels, adolf hitler and helicopters. These things were all very *alien* at that time.
Its just a matter of vivid fantasy, or in this case, vivid hallucinations.
Maybe the inca-culture or whatever ate alot of hallucinogens (they did actually) which estethically formed their civilisation, it would only seem natural that we saw the same things as they, but we think its visions of ancient cultures when all were really seeing is the same thing they saw.

 

[Psyfinity]

I'm more willing to lean towards the different perspective than anything else. We all know drugs make you see things in a whole new light, shrooms are no different, but sure it feels like being enlightened sometimes

 

[eacoasticas]

^^^^
I think shrooms, and acid, are great for personal growth because of their changes in ones perspective. But thats all it is, imo, a change in perspective.
Certainly not a *teacher* or a *higher being* teaching you the hidden secrets of the universe. Our concioussness is so very limited when sober, it still is when on shrooms, but the diffrence between the two is enlightening.
IMO.

 

[TwoSeatsEven]

Originally posted by mll:
The trouble with the idea that life just happened is that the coincidence of complex proteins "just happening" is something like 10 to the power of 20. More than all the atoms in the universe. the chances of that happening twice along with a translation mechanism which is what the DNA molecule is, and it all appening within the first billion years of earths existence is practically impossible. Then when you start stacking up the chances of consciousness forming it really gets unlikely.
First let me say that you're being satirical, you're a little too good at it for me. Please excuse if this if you are, but assuming you're not...
10 to the power of 20 is no where near the number of atoms in the universe, there is about 6.023 X 10 to the 23rd power in a gram of hydrogen. (Avogadro's number) That is such a small amount, and that's still over 6000 times larger than the number you suggested. Also, a billion years is a long time, but still I'm not saying that we evolved from proteins or anything else for that matter. All I'm saying is that people create theories of their own creation, among other things. For a more insignificant example, have you ever dropped something small on the floor and when you went to look for where it might have landed, you cannot find it anywhere? After the immediate search of the general area, you try to solve the problem of where it could be. By common sence you figure it has to be in the room, and you figure it might have bouced off your chair leg and rolled under the couch-- you check... but it's not there. You continue going over every rational solution until you exhaust every rational option, and then you move on to less likely scenarios. Soon you're checking even ridiculous places, and even distances further than you thought it could ever travel. You KNOW it has to be somwhere! Eventually you find it in the rolled up cuff of your pants. I've thought of many crazy ways this world could have been created, some far crazier than others, but I still don't think I know the correct answer.
As for chemical reactions, there's proof to that. That's what drugs do. That's what love/attraction is, it's chemistry! Chemical reactions in the brain. Now am I saying love is not real or meaningful? No way, my girl would kill me. I'm just saying that's what it is. I, like most people, think in the form of a inner monolouge. I don't think that's aliens talking to me. I dream almost every night, often of things that I have never heard of, never seen, and are just totally crazy. I can't explain this, no one can. Yet my brain created it. To say that you can hear/see/contact aliens/spirits/whatever through shrooms, is similar to contacting alien dimensions though dreams. Then again, I'm no dream expert... who knows.
TwoSeatsEven

 

[mll]

eac,
psilocybin and psilocin arn't particularly alien to the brain. Psilocin is very similar to DMT which occurs naturally in the brain and will bond to the same receptors. They arn't alien to the brain at all. Even if they were, the idea that a compound alien to the brain should create visions of aliens is doubtful. I don't think the Jules Verne thing is relevant - i can sit here and think up a thousand things that science might create in the next 100 years, that isn't the same as contacting aliens on mushrooms. Why should the brain create a constant experience recreatable at will? If it was "Just hallucinations" it would make up different things every time and it wouldn't make any sense either.
twoseats,
the figure of atoms in the universe is 10 to the power of 80.

 

[mll]

well we know there are chemical reactions in the brain. But it's like saying life is "just a chemical reaction". Yes it is, but it's obviously far more than that too. Saying its a chemical reaction doesn't really progress us any furthur on the subject.

 

[eacoasticas]

There is alot of different psychotic conditions that includes hearing voices, like schizophrenia. Do you also think schizophrenic people are cyberstellarmultidimensional-linked with a different entity?
or could it be just a chemical imbalance, or a
chemical alteration ...
What do you think?
This condition is recreated to a certain degree by the brain in schizoprenics. I know schizoprenia is not very researched but i don't think that hearing voices that 'were not yours' means that it is aliens.
If it were, ive been having a chat with them many times when strung out on speed. Possibly even met them on a couple of occasions.
And last, i didnt say that psilocybin/psilocin were alien substances to the brain (but they still are to a certain degree) but the feeling of being intoxicated by psilocybin were alien.
And ... DMT is broken down by MAO, remove MAO and you have the 'third eye' and is in contact with aliens... i don't think so. But hey, maybe someone didnt want us to communicate with the aliens and implemented MAO.
The only thing alien is yourself when you remove your biological mechanisms.

 

[eacoasticas]

Hallucinogens create a condition, the same condition every time. This condition includes hearing voices, seeing 'people' or 'aliens' or whatever you want to call it.
They bond, just like you said, to the same receptors every time, creating the same psychological reactions every time. Of course the experiences doesnt varies very much
Same thing with speedpsychosis, same thing over and over again. Maybe the shadowpeople and voices from speedinduced psychosis is aliens.
No!
IMHO!
[ 19 March 2002: Message edited by: eacoasticas ]

 

[badwithnames]

I would just like to say that this is one of the best threads I have read on Bluelight!
Fantastic reading.

 

[@ndy]

Who else is like me and only has a very strong change in perspective and visual enhancement. I don't see aliens, etc. I've never heard of anyone seeing entities on mushrooms, the visuals just arn't that strong. You would start to recieve visual overlay, patterns etc covering your visual field, before you saw entities. Psilocybin just does not produce that type of visual, I'm sorry. Maybe youre confusing mushrooms with DMT?

 

[Mr. Frink]

I was reminded of another interesting property of Psilocybin by SovietContin's post. The fact that it is very common to see hallucinations containing imagery of ancient MesoAmerican civilizations during a 'shroom trip. In my trip report, I talk about seeing visions of an ancient Mayan ceremony.
In his book, LSD: My Problem Child, Albert Hofmann has a similiar experience:

Thirty minutes after my taking the mushrooms, the exterior world began to undergo a strange transformation. Everything assumed a Mexican character. As I was perfectly well aware that my knowledge of the Mexican origin of the mushroom would lead me to imagine only Mexican scenery, I tried deliberately to look on my environment as I knew it normally. But all voluntary efforts to look at things in their customary forms and colors proved ineffective. Whether my eyes were closed or open, I saw only Mexican motifs and colors. When the doctor supervising the experiment bent over me to check my blood pressure, he was transformed into an Aztec priest and I would not have been astonished if he had drawn an obsidian knife. In spite of the seriousness of the situation, it amused me to see how the Germanic face of my colleague had acquired a purely Indian expression.
I have also mentioned the occurrence of Mexican motifs in psilocybin inebriation during my first selfexperiment with dried Psilocybe mexicana mushrooms, as was described in the section on the chemical investigation of these mushrooms. The same phenomenon has also struck R. Gordon Wasson. Proceeding from such observations, he has advanced the conjecture that ancient Mexican art could have been influenced by visionary images, as they appear in mushroom inebriation.
Terence McKenna talks about this phenomena in his book Archaic Revival:

In Southern Mexico coincident with the Mayan cultural area, natives use a number of psilocybin-containing mushrooms. These mushrooms constitute the Mexican mushroom complex discovered by Valentina and Gordon Wasson in the early fifties. Psilocybe cubensis also occurs in these areas, being especially prolific at Palenque. Palenque is the site of the ruins of one of the most exquisite cities of the Mayan climan. Many people have taken the musrooms at Palenque and have had the impression that they were ingesting the sacred sacrament of the people who built this fabulous abandoned seventh-century Mayan city.
A possible explanation for this has been proposed by scientist Rupert Sheldrake. Since the Mayan and Aztek civilizations used the psilocybe mushroom for many generations, the psilocybe molecule may have picked up its motifs in its morphogenic field. If this is true, perhaps in a thousand years, when people trip on LSD maybe they'll see visions of 20/21st century civilization!
[ 20 March 2002: Message edited by: Mr. Frink ]

 

[Teon]

Using LSD for 25+ years...2-3-4-5-6 X a week...youd think I'd had it all.
Not True
A single massive dose of mushroom chaged all that....
So signif. different are these things ....ThAt i.M JuST NOT tHE SaME...
My MiNd (At LEAsT)....IS sO MuCH dIffEReNT... aNd Not In tHe vbeSt wAy...( I Dare saY).
Does anyone concur?

 

[Mr. Frink]

To those of you who are rooted in the religion of scientific rationalism, I offer you a possible theory that might fit your worldview.
Our brain is equiped with 5 main senses. Our sense of sight is a telepathy of sorts. We can "see" images of distant objects in our brain. Light bounces off those objects and is perceived through organs that are sensitive to light. Our ears can pick up sound waves generated by things that can be miles away. But there's no way that anyone can claim that our senses can pick up everything. Through our technology we've learned that there are other types of waves that we can't perceive. Infrared, radio waves and radiation are three examples of things we've just learned about in the last hundred years.
Is it possible that psilocybin activates another sense that allows us to "tune in" to things that were previously undetectable to us? Perhaps we are not done evolving, and the addition of psilocybin gives us access to a new mode of perception? There is already DMT present our neurochemisty, so our brain does have a use for it. It's possible that by ingesting a DMT-like molecule--psilocybin, a portion of our brain becomes sort of a "radio"--capable of receiving and transmitting information to another entity.
Science is very young, and there is much more that we don't know than we do. Currently we have no idea of how our brains produce consciousness, so to fall back on the argument that the peculiar effects of a 'shroom trip is "just chemistry" is the same as admitting "I don't know what's going on".
eacoasticas -- Interesting point you bring up concerning Schizophrenics "hearing voices", but I don't think it's necessarily valid. While their psychosis is created through a chemical imbalance, it does not involve the same chemicals responsible for a mushroom trip. The 'shroom trip is so facinating because the voice one hears has a definite personality of its own, and often can offer information that the tripper had no way of finding out on his own.
But, then again, perhaps you are right. Labeling Schizophrenics as "insane" is only a cultural phenomena. A few hundred years ago people exhibiting those symptoms were regard as being spiritual mystics. Many of the figures we read about in the Bible who "spoke to God", would today be labeled "schizo" and locked up in the local looney bin. But that's just our culture. In other areas of the world, they would be seen as Shamen. It's all just a matter of perspective, I guess.

 

[Mr. Frink]

Originally posted by @ndy:
Who else is like me and only has a very strong change in perspective and visual enhancement. I don't see aliens, etc. I've never heard of anyone seeing entities on mushrooms, the visuals just arn't that strong. You would start to recieve visual overlay, patterns etc covering your visual field, before you saw entities. Psilocybin just does not produce that type of visual, I'm sorry. Maybe youre confusing mushrooms with DMT?
Well, I'm with you on this one, actually. While I've heard voices while on a 'shroom trip, I've never actually seen the speaker. I think it's pretty rare to see the author of the data stream.
But if you're saying that you don't have visual hallucinations on Psilocybin, you couldn't be more wrong! Go to the EROWID Experience Vault and you can read many accounts of people who have had fantastic visual hallucinations on Psilocybin. I've seen ancient civilizations, alien planets, intricate machines, forests, all kinds of things. BUT (and this is the important part) never on 'shrooms alone. I only have these intense visual hallucinations when I combine mushrooms with Cannabis. If I smoke a few joints then I get crazy visuals. Maybe that's your problem.
Don't make the mistake in thinking that just because you haven't experienced something, that means nobody has ever experienced it. You seem like a smart guy, @ndy--I think you can probably see the error in your logic there!
It seems like you're dismissing this entire idea without ever trying to experience it!. Why don't you see if what we're talking about is possible? Take a large dose of psilocybin mushrooms, and smoke a few joints. And it's very important to talk to the substance. If you don't talk to it, it won't talk to you! It follows the simple rules of ordinary etiquette, and it does not speak to strangers. But if you say to it the simpliest thing like, "Hello...is anyone there?" then it will say, "Yes...ready and willing...what's up?". Try it, and then come back here.
PurestLove--No, I haven't read Rick Strassman's book: "DMT--the Spirit Molecule", but it sounds great! I definitely do want to read it, especially after reading this interview with Dr. Strassman on the TRIP Magazine website. Have you read it? Any opinion on it?

 

[PuristLove]

Yes, I read it when it first became available. I found his work extremely interesting, though I definitely believe he's jumped to some conclusions about DMT prematurely. Also, he's really bought into the Descartian soul interacting with the brain through the pineal gland thing.
Like I mentioned before, I'm skeptical about these sort of theories but find them interesting to explore all the same.
You'll definitely enjoy the book. And TRIP magazine rocks! James Kent has done a LOT of work in psychedelic media and gets very little recognition. And Scotto is one of my favorite psychonauts.
Pure

 

[mll]

Alien contact is very common on mushrooms, as Mckenna has pointed out. And Strassman in his DMT book (he regards psilocybin as "orally active DMT" by the way) says the most striking part of the entire experiment was how often people met aliens.
The schizophrenia thing won't really wash - most schizophrenics don't meet aliens. And the ones that do meet ones they have seen on star trek. It's very unusual for schizophrenic encounters with aliens to relate at all to the mushroom experience of aliens. They're completly different.

 

[TwoSeatsEven]

Well, I am pretty much exhausted on my opinion. Anyway...
Mll... Good job with the 10 to the power of 80 being the number of atoms in the universe. If it's not infinate, I agree, that's about right. Far different than 10 to the 20 which is less than the amount of atoms in a single mushroom.
Basically my argument can be summed up nicely...
1. Chemical inbalance and reaction causes whatever you're seeing/hearing/feeling/tasting/smelling on any drug or sober for that matter.... so yeah, that's not a real argument. It's just a statement on the human brain and why we percieve differnt things that ARE real. Obviously drugs interfere with this.
2. People have a tendency to come to conclusions that suit their own beliefs. Couple thousand years ago people thought we were the center of the universe, the world was flat, the concept of atoms would be ridiculous... blah blah blah. People used to drill holes in each others heads to cure headaches, and pills, medicine, lsd and loads of other drugs are all recent inventions. Science reinvents it's beliefs every thousand years or so and they see how stupid they were in the past. What will we think in a few thousand years... I'm sure all the theories we have will be considered totally ridiculous in the light of future evidence.
3. People just can't wait for facts, they have to create theories and ideas and fiction of how things might be. Now this is good because it creates progress.... but don't think too much of your ideas, a thousand years from now your decendants will be laughing at you. Just enjoy life.
Anyway... im done.
TwoSeatsEven

 

[mll]

Yep, always keep an open mind. Quantum mechanics has shown us that the last 400 years of science is basically nonsense. There are new discoveries ahead.

 

[PARADIGM]

@ndy, maybe you just get bad mushrooms. Everytime I have tripped it has been on high quality mushrooms and I have had some kind of spiritual experience. And yes near death experiences with entities that commmunicate differently than we do. Traveling through passageways in your head seeing the history of the universe. These are all occurances that are unique in each individual yet share too many similiarites to be sheer coincidence. Many people don't get these experiences, but that is mainly because they go about Tripping in the wrong way. They do it to get fucked up and not to experience something spiritual.
Maybe you should open your mind instead of your mouth and try listening, without the interruption from your ego. That is the point of psychadelics by the way, to dissolve your ego and be enlightened by new experiences.

 

[OperatesHeavyMachinery]

This is a classic argument. Both arguments are biased by the expectation a person has. Are you a staunch rationalist who views the universe as a random entropic machine, whose parameters it is your task to discover? Or are you more of a soggy one-with-the-universe pantheist who sees the universe as an orgiastic dance of divinity, which you are lucky enough to be a part of? Or do you fall somewhere in the middle?
None of the arguments (that can be rightly called arguments and not attacks) on this issue have been wrong. They aren't even in conflict, as they might appear. "Is it a mere chemical reaction?" Certainly. "Are you communicating with the ubiquitous "OTHER?" Without a doubt.
We are not all geared to be religious, and we are not all geared to be scientists. Knowing what you know of science and existence, can you truly call the world a "dumb random mechanical accident?" Likewise, can you call these chemical catalysts for personal development and "communication with the other" mere coincidences?
There is unity in the chemical similarities. If you will agree that psychedelics function in ways that stifle self-associations (ego-death of sorts), then you are also realizing, at some level, something outside of yourself.
Does it take an intelligence to make this communication? Your answer here will depend on your definition and interpretation of what it means to be intelligent. And often when these questions are pondered beyond a human-oriented intelligence, the answers point to divinity. It's not "making excuses," these are logical possibilities to explore.
Do you risk becoming a fanatic by giving too much credit to the interpretation (myth) you invent during these experiences? Certainly.. all religious experience puts a person at risk of attaching themselves too deeply to the models they've construed to communicate the experience.
Hence, the tales of speaking to aliens sound simply like drug-induced lunacy, if it is not understood that the term was used for lack of a better one.
Are both sides valid? Of course! Do we say that a physiological cure for a medical condition is more appropriate than a psychological one? No, in many cases we try to use the two in unison.
So, religious gurus, lighten up. It's a chemical reaction. Chemists, lighten up. It's a religious experience.
[ 20 March 2002: Message edited by: OperatesHeavyMachinery ]