• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ

Miscellaneous Most atypical psychedelic experiences?

Absolutely agree and rereading my post I can see that it may appear like I was saying otherwise. My final comment was more about qualitative experience, where 5-MEO-AMT is markedly different from 5-MEO-DMT. With these 5-MEO-xxx substances, I'm always exercising a much greater level of caution than with a more traditional/classic psychedelic, and very much for the reasons you've gone into.

5-MeO DMT felt just as Shulgin described i.e. 'like being sat on by an elephant'.

So I was fairly certain 5-MeO AMT would be worse. That for me it would be toxic. After all, some deaths at low doses were due to aspiration of vomit.

There are so many better ring-substituted AMT derivatives. 5-MeO AMT just happens to have a naturally occuring (read 'cheap') precursor making synthesis attractive because the product is so potent (read 'highly profitable').

(R) 7-methyl AMT is identical to MDA in it's subjective effects but synthesis is demanding and costly. BUT if it's legal in some places, I'm surprised that nobody has borrowed the Dutch idea of producing a room odoriser. It was MDMC mixed with a splash of vanilla extract. So it's officially not intended to be imbibed and voila - neatly side-steps the law.
 
Synthetic costs about 1/10 of that and you can do 100g in a 5L vessel in a matter of hours...

Synthetic dmt is absolutely a thing.

Sure it is, look at Tihkal #6. Check those yields and consider:

1)Why did Shulgin work with such small scales?
2)If it's so damned simple, how is it that the cost of DMT is so high?
3)Tryptamine is REALLY cheap - after all, decarboxylation of tryptophan (the amino-acid) means it's not as if it's watched, So it's not precursor price.

Has someone been successfully running a cartel for over 50 year?

If their is some amazing new route (which your sketch appears to suggest) then references or it isn't true.
 
Synthetic costs about 1/10 of that and you can do 100g in a 5L vessel in a matter of hours...

Synthetic dmt is absolutely a thing.

Oh, i just went along with that expert chemist who claimed it costs a fortune to synthesize. How embarrassing then. I'm still puzzled though.

Sure it is, look at Tihkal #6. Check those yields and consider:

1)Why did Shulgin work with such small scales?
2)If it's so damned simple, how is it that the cost of DMT is so high?
3)Tryptamine is REALLY cheap - after all, decarboxylation of tryptophan (the amino-acid) means it's not as if it's watched, So it's not precursor price.

Has someone been successfully running a cartel for over 50 year?

If their is some amazing new route (which your sketch appears to suggest) then references or it isn't true.

I don't know how much "f300" is but i think you think DMT is more expensive than it is...

I think Shulgin would work at a small scale because he was trying chemicals, not working commercially.
 
Oh, i just went along with that expert chemist who claimed it costs a fortune to synthesize. How embarrassing then. I'm still puzzled though.

Well as I pointed out, TiHKAL #6 has pages and pages of routes that DO produce DMT but notice the small scales, low yields and use of toxic and energetic materials. So it's very costly... but that's the least of the issues.

It doesn't scale well.

In TiHKAL Shulgin points out how unreliable literature was.

We once made about 6 grams of 5-MeO DMT and we needed 500mL reaction vessels because so much solvent was required,

So it's an elementary mistake to simply think you can simply increase the size of the glassware and voila, you can make batches an order of size larger.

But my one useful tips is that cheap ethanolamine* can be used in place of the costly and sensitive thiophenol.... But you will discover that ethanolamine stinks, I mean, we made 6 grams of 5-MeO DMT and had to repaint the entire lab including floor and ceiling and the smell was still pretty evident.

So yes, the cost makes it unattractive bot 'soft factors' make it practically impossible.

*Since 2019 several 'odourless' alternatives to thiophenolate have turned up but they aren't direct replacements so you could waste a lot of time, money and effort only to find that they don't work.

I guess an analogous example would be that R.B.Woodward produced a synthesis for quinine, cholesterol, cortisone, strychnine, lysergic acid, reserpine, chlorophyll, cephalosporin, and colchicine... but none of them were ever used to produce those naturak products. 30+ years later their ARE synthetic routes which can compete. So MAYBE one day someone will find a useful synthesis for DMT, but it hasn't happened yet.

IF you have a superb fume-cupboard with appropriate scrubbers ethanolamine does bring down the price, but still not enough to make synthesis viable.

Oh - and don't forget that while a 5l vessel CAN hold 5000mL of a liquid - ideally you should only use them 1/3rd to 2/3rd full. After all, any exothermic reaction and/or reaction that liberates a gas is going to need some head-space while any endothermic reaction (i.e. one you must heat) needs sufficient liquid to allow control of heating,
 
No one who is chasing yields follows shulgin. Shulgin merely showed it was possible.
 
No one who is chasing yields follows shulgin. Shulgin merely showed it was possible.

OR scale. The volumes of solvents involved mean 5L vessels wouldn't cut it. Don't forget, it MAY hold 5l but nobody would ever use a reaction vessel FULL, especially since H2 is certain to be vented, For any endothermic reaction ⅔ is about as much as you would use i.e. 3⅓L.

That's just one of the reasons I stated that it didn't scale well.

We used a 500ml reaction vessel to produce about 6 grams of 5 MeO-DMT. So 100g.....
 
its called a 50 L reactor
OR scale. The volumes of solvents involved mean 5L vessels wouldn't cut it. Don't forget, it MAY hold 5l but nobody would ever use a reaction vessel FULL, especially since H2 is certain to be vented, For any endothermic reaction ⅔ is about as much as you would use i.e. 3⅓L.

That's just one of the reasons I stated that it didn't scale well.

We used a 500ml reaction vessel to produce about 6 grams of 5 MeO-DMT. So 100g.....
 
It mostly just boils down to the fact that the way they're using the term "full agonism" in this context has to do with the drug's capacity to activate the brain preparations fully in a way comparable to serotonin when paying attention to second messenger levels like inositol phosphate. The difference is just that when they're testing drugs this way, they can easily send it right to the relevant site and don't worry about things like overdosing or anything and in general, like I pointed out with the data on LSD, psilocin, and mescaline, pretty much any 5-HT2A receptor agonist can get to or near "full agonism" when you can test them that directly and without any restrictions. It's useful for testing things like how the 5-HT2A receptor functions in various parts of the brain without having to worry about how the living animal responds to the drug and just being able to test the exact part of the brain or specific cell type of whatever that you want to test. Again, I'm no professional and I'm sure they could come up with many more ideas off the top of their head of things you can do with this kind of info, but basically it's just for brain research, and the way they're using it in that kind of research, it does function as a full agonist when administered at a high enough concentration, so it counts.

When it comes to drug users, the definition of "full agonist" is usually used more so with respect to how much the drug actually activates the receptor inherently instead, at least based on the conversations I'm familiar with. It's an important question when it comes to varying levels of safety with things like morphine vs mitragynine (from kratom) or THC vs synthetic cannabinoids. These are the kinds of differences in the psychedelic molecules that the study I linked before supposedly measures specifically. This all basically just suggests that NBOMes are not "full agonists" in the way that a lot of people outside of the scientific community originally interpreted them to be, but really, that doesn't change a whole lot about what we know about them anyway, because a lot of what people assume to be true about "5-HT2A receptor full agonists" was really just coming from NBOMes in the first place. The truth is, at least to my knowledge, there's yet to be much scientific consensus on the difference between 5-HT2A receptor full and partial agonists, probably especially because psychedelics are highly complex drugs that can also work through multiple channels at the same receptor, like it's possible to be a full agonist at one signalling pathway at the 5-HT2A receptor and a partial agonist or even antagonist at another.

The reason that NBOMes are used in scientific research is for their 5-HT2 receptor selectivity. The more receptor targets or other site a drug binds to than the specific one you're interested in, the less you can trust that the data from your research actually does have specific relevance to the receptor you're interested in compared to the other targets, making selective tools like the NBOMes significantly better for testing 5-HT2 receptor activity than almost any other psychedelics. The toxicity of NBOMes is not considered to be understood by any scientific body that I'm aware of. I wouldn't be surprised if it is through 5-HT2 receptors, but the explanation for how exactly it works would still not be entirely clear yet given that, as again psychedelics can do rather complex things at those receptors involving different affinities and efficacies for different pathways there simultaneously.



You’re welcome to think those two situations are comparable if you like, but I personally do not.



I don't use research chemical dissociatives because I have the exact same mindset about them that you do.



I never actually tried NBOMes myself so I have no direct opinion on them. I’m glad you got something out of them even if they weren’t the very best.
Looking at IP3 mobilisation isn't a holistic measure of receptor activation because it neglects the contribution of beta arrestin biased signaling. IP3 signaling is downstream of Gq activation.

There's a recent paper (shoutout @Psychestim for showing me! ) that measures the signaling bias at the 5HT2a receptors, and 25I-NBOMe has higher efficacy than LSD at beta arrestin signaling.

They also make pure beta arrestin agonists, which are analogs of 25I where the NBOMe is expanded to a biphenyl or napthyl, and these do not produce a head twitch in rodents (but have antidepressant effects apparently).

A likely reason why 25I is so harmful is that it is quite a strong beta arrestin pathway agonist, but weaker at the Gq pathway, so an equipsychadelic dose will have much more beta arrestin signaling, which based on the pathology of 25I overdose, causes seizures somehow.
 
its called a 50 L reactor

And explain how you intend to manage a 50l reactor? That scale is a whole other story that I learnt the hard way.

Put simply - exothermic reactions cannot be meaningfully cooled external since volumes cube, areas square.

But the fact that not one person has EVER successfully scaled above a few grams should be a hint.... I mean, read the MSDS of the materials used on all of Shulgin's routes! Those are not things one would use without a decent fume-cupboard to start with and a 50L vessel with addition funnels and a VERY large condenser are going to end up HUGE.

Or do you plan to use a ladder for additions? Safety first, ay?

I've pointed to Shulgin's work several times, I've pointed to the high cost of (dangerous) reagents and the terrible yields. Go do some homework.

We even made some 5MeO-DMT and got 6-7g of material using 500ml glassware (and a novel short-cut). But it certainly wasn't pure so Shulgin, the guy who had 50+ years experience NEVER scaled although he made some other items at magnitudes larger.
You cannot simple use bigger reaction vessels. THAT is the problem, not the answer.
 
Last edited:
If you say so

I didn't just say so, I provided a lot of reference. That's the thing about science. It doesn't care about your opinion or my opinion. It provides the information to allow anyone and everyone with the opportunity to replicate the experiments so they can confirm anything they conclude.

I also found out the hard way. We tried scaling a 2CI synthesis (when 2CI was legal in The Netherlands) and to watch as the heat of an uncontrolled DIBAL-H reduction boiled 30L of toluene into our lab is scary. No amount of dry-ice/acetone applied to the surface of the vessel had no effect other than to boil off the acetone (which had preciously been at −78°C).

We didn't run, we tried to remove all of the energetic materials (e.g. 5L of nitromethane) from the work-space. We thought we had got away with it.

Then someone turned on the hot tap somewhere in the building. The spark from the Combi-Boiler intended to light the gas an heat the water ignited the 500+ m3 of toluene vapour that had wended it's way throughout the property. I'm sure you can envision what happened next.

Explosions are weird. FIRST I heard it, THEN I saw it, FINALLY I felt it. I was the lucky one. It burnt off every single hair on my head (it went crispy and came off in lumps), burnt all of my clothing (black) but only my face and hands were actually burnt. The the other 2 guys were not as lucky. One got 50% burns, the other 30% burns. Their skin just fell off and they were transported by Helicopter to a specialist burns unit in Belgium. You read that right - their injuries were so severe that they were taken to another country,

And DIBAL-H is one of the safer options. But both LAH & lithium aluminium triethyl hydride and mentioned along with a couple that aren't even in use any more,

Now, you COULD add the reducing agents VERY slowly so external cooling would control it - but when I say slow, I mean weeks. But as far as I know, if you even needed to scale something like this (imagine DMT turns out to have some use where so much is required, batch reactions aren't used but rather a continuous process BUT given the low yields, inevitable impurities that have to be removed and the cost of the whole setup - the FIRST thing an industrial chemist would do is to find an alternative synthesis.

Lots of things are technically possible, but the market price of DMT and the fact that many people didn't even know it COULD be made synthetically kind of hints that almost nobody synthetically produces it.

Taxol can be made synthetically but 20 years ago farmers were being paid to plane ewe trees because the scientists correctly divined that even in 25 years their wouldn't be a useful synthesis,

If you want cheap DMT, find out which plants produce it, begin an intensive search for the strains that produce the most and cross breed them. I mean, isn't that what they have done for both cannabis and thebaine (precursor to oxycodone). Of the latter, Tazmanian Alkaloids have introduced 'The Norman Strain'. Doesn't have to be grown in fenced off, secure fields because it doesn't produce morphine, but the KEY is that unlike the species of poppy where thebaine is equally spread throughout the plant (e.g. Papaver Oriente), the Norman Strain has >95% of the thebaine in it's sap so that it's harvested as normal opium is.

I have no idea of the prices involved but I know it took them 12 years. I feel almost certain that the same could be applied to DMT. So if you have the time and the skills, you could most likely halve the cost of DMT which would save rare species being destroyed. Maybe you could get a grant?
 
What are some of your trips that had themes that you would never had expected from a psychedelic?

I'll start with something that happened to me:

I was in a (in hindsight, too public) park on around 400 morning glory seeds, and I encountered a very bizarre effect: overtly pornographic scenes appeared to me in trees, grassblades, clouds, etc! Now this wasn't like the usual pareidolia of merely seeing faces in treetrunks or animals in the carpet, this was a next-level orgy of giant-breasted women that appeared all around me, with only the usual color enhancements accompanying it. I wasn't particularly aroused, but I was certainly confused, and certainly glad that the scenes were only of women and men of societally acceptable form and mostly heterosexual (with the exception of the lesbians :p)!

Brilliant!! I fuckin love psychedelic induced sexual hallucinations.


Unfortunately, this probably says more about yourself than you're willing to admit. An orgy of giant breasted women? Coupled with lesbians? My fuckin fantasy....
 
Never had those - sex while on psychedelics was interesting. Isophenidine was the most interesting because we reached a state where we couldn't tell where our own bodies ended and the other person's began.
 
Last time I did a high-ish DXM dose (around 450 or 500mg) with around 100mg of benadryl as a potentiator and nausea killer with my friend, I kept getting a feeling that there was another person in the room, maybe like a ghost? I don't know. A few times during the trip I could've sworn they were talking to me or maybe I even started mumbling to them. Strange stuff, I don't remember too much of it.
 
Last time I did a high-ish DXM dose (around 450 or 500mg) with around 100mg of benadryl as a potentiator and nausea killer with my friend, I kept getting a feeling that there was another person in the room, maybe like a ghost? I don't know. A few times during the trip I could've sworn they were talking to me or maybe I even started mumbling to them. Strange stuff, I don't remember too much of it.
That's shadow people...

mainly paranoia while in a super altered state.

Can happen on many different substances.

I've only experienced it on stimulant benders.
 
huh... "shadow people" is a good name for that.

i've had shadow ppl on all sorts of stuff. my buddy and i hallucinated the same shadow person in a corner while on dxm, iirc he even described it the way i had seen it. like a cool- colors version of shao khan.

anyway, on dmt the figures were VERY visible (and even seemed to not want to be, turning away from me and waving their hands to shoo me). one came out of the curtains and gestured for me to put my pipe on the bookshelf before she disappeared back into the curtain. i put the pipe there, and my high ass forgot... then a couple days later, i looked for it... gone! pretty sure it was cause my parents found it and threw it away.
 
One time many years ago I was on some really good blotter acid and suddenly realized that I was hungry-- I actually had the munchies. Obviously this normally doesn't happen, but it did that time.

So I toasted a couple pieces of whole wheat bread, buttered them, and drizzled them with honey. The hard part was chewing-- it seemed so very complicated! Keep in mind I was peaking at this point.

But I started  really getting into it...the flavors were incredibly intense and I was "tasting" the golden color of the honey, I could hear the buzzing of the bees that made it, and I thought I could actually  feel the calories becoming a part of me. And the energy! I felt the energy of the food coursing thru my veins. When I was done I was so full of energy I had to go walking around for a couple of hours.

It was a spiritual experience. This happened 40 years ago and I remember it as clearly as if it was yesterday.
 
Top