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"Morality" of drugs and art

gmanyo, I want to start a band which makes music only while stoned, with the intent of having the songs sound good when you're stoned. Then I'll call it Animal Collective or maybe MGMT. If you like it, I swear I will bring this up.
 
Then I'm going to make a band which plays classical music and if you listen to it stoned it kills you.
 
I think you're missing the point here.

Art is subjective, if it wasn't, it wouldn't be art. Taking drugs is a personal choice. "Morality" has nothing to do with either of these things.
 
We dropped the "Morality" thing several posts ago. I don't want to delete it in the title because the "Drugs and art" is a really boring title.
 
NeighborhoodThreat said:
I think you're missing the point here.

Art is subjective, if it wasn't, it wouldn't be art. Taking drugs is a personal choice. "Morality" has nothing to do with either of these things.
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I think gmanyo means "morality" only in the loosest sense of the word. As I said, everything is subjective and as long as you get appreciation out of something, it serves its purpose. But at the same time, the art as the author envisioned it to be might be at its purest when you're sober--you pick up the right amount of, say, this emotion, or that scene is just subtle enough to work there. gmanyo is afraid that experiencing art while under the influence might skew this perception in a way which ultimately makes it less fulfilling--as opposed to simply "wrong" or "impure".
 
leggomyego said:
I think gmanyo means "morality" only in the loosest sense of the word. As I said, everything is subjective and as long as you get appreciation out of something, it serves its purpose. But at the same time, the art as the author envisioned it to be might be at its purest when you're sober--you pick up the right amount of, say, this emotion, or that scene is just subtle enough to work there. gmanyo is afraid that experiencing art while under the influence might skew this perception in a way which ultimately makes it less fulfilling--as opposed to simply "wrong" or "impure".
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Yes, except possibly not "fulfilling". "Impure" might actually be closer. Farther away from the atmosphere and message as envisioned by the author of the work.

Also my band will be called Mozart. And we'll play Baroque. SUCK IT, MUSIC HISTORY MAJORS.
 
leggomyego said:
I think gmanyo means "morality" only in the loosest sense of the word. As I said, everything is subjective and as long as you get appreciation out of something, it serves its purpose. But at the same time, the art as the author envisioned it to be might be at its purest when you're sober--you pick up the right amount of, say, this emotion, or that scene is just subtle enough to work there. gmanyo is afraid that experiencing art while under the influence might skew this perception in a way which ultimately makes it less fulfilling--as opposed to simply "wrong" or "impure".
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Yeah , this is what i was trying to say, though I dont believe that all art is most appreciates while sober. For instance, a ton of bands sound purposely do make music that they know stoners will like, so therefore way the artist intended that fans listening to the music would be high. Sme songs for instance would have absolutely no context if the listener never used or knew anything about drugs (a number of velvet underground, and David Bowie songs and many,many more)

But I know that if I had the chance to go to the louvre, or visit Florence, I would want to be sober for that. A lot of that art I find just so god damned humbling, and I'd be afraid that the drugs would interfere with that kind of perception I get from a leonardo DaVinci painting, or a Massacio frescoe.
 
But if it's just impure and not what the artist intended, what's the problem? The artist exists to serve ME. If I feel an even more perfect balance of x and y elements from a piece when I'm on psychedelics (which I don't, this is an example), then what's the problem? I'm only bothered by the fact that these drugs may skew that perfect balance.
 
That's true, I ones saying that it's bad for YOU to use drugs to appreciate art, but for me, I like to see stuff like paintings sober. As for music, well I do think drugs enhance it for me.
 
I get why you like to see paintings sober, Znegative--you described the "realness" of them and how they blow you away in a "unique and private way". But gmanyo has a sense of the art being somehow "impure" even if it is more fulfilling, which I can't understand. He has a sense of respect for the artist's intent in creating the work.

gmanyo, why does the artist's vision deserve respect? Is it because she put a lot of effort into making it? I DO respect artists who put effort into their art--even if it is shitty. But my goal in art is to enjoy the artwork, not pay artists respect for their hard work. Or is it because she had artistic talent? Talent is subjective--if an artist sucks sober but is consistently good when you're stoned, she has talent, just not when sober. She doesn't pick up on the nuances that sober people look for, but instead picks up on the nuances that stoned people look for. And if an artist is good sober, but better and MORE balanced and perfect when you're stoned (again, not saying this happens), wouldn't that make the artist more talented when you're stoned?

Stop me if I'm jumping to conclusions.
 
leggomyego said:
Joining in mid-thread...
I certainly APPRECIATE art while high. There's no question about that. I appreciate it in the same way I appreciate it while sober, only my appreciation is intensified. [...]
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I find this to be a very dangerous and misleading idea, and also a rather common one amongst new drug users. I don't know if leggomyego here is new to the drug world, but I know that this "intensifying" thing is a common misconception. In my experience, drugs do not ENHANCE perception but they DISTORT it. I'm not saying it is a good or a bad thing, I'm just saying that when you're high red is not just redder, and soft is not just softer, but they are simply different. Things are perceived in a different way. This sometimes means that bright will be brighter, but it also means a lot of other things that cannot be described as simple "intensification" or "enhancement" of reality. A much deeper change is happening to perception.
 
max_ said:
I find this to be a very dangerous and misleading idea, and also a rather common one amongst new drug users. I don't know if leggomyego here is new to the drug world, but I know that this "intensifying" thing is a common misconception. In my experience, drugs do not ENHANCE perception but they DISTORT it. I'm not saying it is a good or a bad thing, I'm just saying that when you're high red is not just redder, and soft is not just softer, but they are simply different. Things are perceived in a different way. This sometimes means that bright will be brighter, but it also means a lot of other things that cannot be described as simple "intensification" or "enhancement" of reality. A much deeper change is happening to perception.
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I would imagine that it enhances certain aspects, devalues some aspects, and distorts others. And even if it enhanced everything, it could disrupt the relative values of the different aesthetic aspects of the film
 
max_ said:
I find this to be a very dangerous and misleading idea, and also a rather common one amongst new drug users. I don't know if leggomyego here is new to the drug world, but I know that this "intensifying" thing is a common misconception. In my experience, drugs do not ENHANCE perception but they DISTORT it. I'm not saying it is a good or a bad thing, I'm just saying that when you're high red is not just redder, and soft is not just softer, but they are simply different. Things are perceived in a different way. This sometimes means that bright will be brighter, but it also means a lot of other things that cannot be described as simple "intensification" or "enhancement" of reality. A much deeper change is happening to perception.
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First off, you're right--I'm inexperienced in psychedelics. I do think they enhance at least one thing, though--your ability to see connections. In fact, the reason some of the "distortions" arise (at least in my limited experience) is because you look too hard and start to see connections which aren't grounded in reality--and eventually the entire world is connected in the most intricate ways, whether it's a cosmic plot against you or a cosmos directed by your every move.

And I've had delusions (at least in the sense that the director did not intend me to see the themes I saw) while watching movies high, sure (one time on MXE I thought even the color red in Pulp Fiction had cosmic significance, and Marcellus Wallace was actually a symbol for Satan)--but I've also had instances where the themes I saw WERE what the director intended (this, for me, usually correlates with a LOW dose of psychedelics/dissociatives/pot). And usually, whatever themes are already present really are made so bold for the duration of the movie that they are practically punching you in the face. Brazil becomes a very sad movie about a man's isolation in an absurd joke of a world.

But let's suppose they distort your perceptions. Let's say you think Marcellus Wallace is Satan and is fighting for Jules' soul, and God keeps trying to show his existence around every corner. If it's beautiful to you, then it has served its purpose.
 
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Slightly unrelated: I feel like some people might be (read: I was) hesitant to enjoy art on psychedelics or pot because to them it's like using opiates to feel happy. From the way I see it, the latter is only bad (or potentially bad) because whatever feelings that opiate happiness is replacing has utility--if you were feeling sad before, for example, your body is telling you to solve a problem in your life. The goal of art, though, is to make you experience beauty, and tility in art is whatever makes you experience beauty.
 
I love the satan thing on pulp fiction. I say, why not? This idea of "enhanced" reality is something that always comes to mind, I always tend to fall into that line of thought, but if you think about it thoroughly this is not what happens. It may seem that it does, but it's not. It's not enhanced ability to see connections but different ability to see them, think about it and you'll see that I'm right.
I like your conception about art. What you talk about is romanticism, right? "art for art's sake" "all art is useless, because it's aim is simply to create a mood", oscar wilde (a freaking genius). I like it, I like it very much and it has been sort of a dogma for me most of my life and although I've been trying to question this idea, I find it hard to raise any kind of argument against it.
As regards the contemplation of art on psychs, I think the important thing is solely the subjective experience of the watcher and the message in itself might not be as important as the actual interpretation that it is given AFTER it has been created. (i.e if you think it's art then it is art and if you think it's good then it is good)
 
Yeah, actually certain drugs do push your "connection-seeing" towards their own agenda. (On psilocybin, it's that whole mother nature goddess thing--"Oh my God, no way that was a coincidence! This movie is her way of speaking to me!" LSD is not very "spiritual" and the meaning is a sort of profound truth and seeing past all that total fucking bullshit the Man has put up to blind you, man.)

But I still say your perception in meanings is enhanced--even if it's enhanced around very particular themes. The first time I tripped on mescaline, I saw symbolism in books which was definitely there even after I sobered up.

Also, I think we're going off topic.
 
If you have never smoked cannabis and listened to your favorite music then you have not heard what it's truly worth. Whatever your music might be, it applies to all!
 
That's true ^^,
I know a lot of people look down on death metal and black metal, as being primitive and barbaric, but when i was a teenager, there was nothing more fascinating than smoking a blunt, and listening to deicide's second album "legion", while simultaneously walking past a graveyard. So many crazy textures and patterns, it's hard to sometimes notice if what you're hearing is really what's being played, or if it's some bizarre connection your brains creating, that isn't there at all.
 
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