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monoamine releasers vs. opioid agonists

ebola?

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Mod, please move if this isn't sufficiently "advanced".
I was wondering, why do many of the interesting (read: fun) monaminergic drugs (eg, methamphetamine, MDMA, etc.) stimulate monoaminergic release and inhibit reuptake while the familiar pleasant opioids are directly agonize receptors for endorphins? Is this some historical accident, or does this reflect a difference in the function of monoamines vs. endorphins?

ebola
 
are there any monoaminergic drugs that agonize? psychedelics (not sure)?

are there any 'opioid reuptake inhibitors'?
 
yes.
There are selective dopamine agonists of various sorts, used for parkinsons, I believe. Agonists selective for D1 are shit recreationally, and reliably cause vomiting. Serotonergic psychedelics appear to work by agonizing at 5ht2a sites, and if I'm not mistaken, LSD's dopamine agonism isn't quite trivial. Letsee...buspirone agonizes 5ht1a, but doesn't seem to do anything useful for anyone. :)

ebola
 
MDMA is a weak agonist at 5HT2. This accounts for its visual effects some experience.

AMT is a fairly robust agonist at 5HT2 and also a potent releaser of the monoamine serotonin.

To the OP, where are endorphin (enkephalins) stored in the brain? Are they stored similarly to monoamines such as dopamine and serotonin (ie in vesicles).

My crude understanding of dopamine or serotonin release is that the compound 'invades' the vesicle and thereby inflates the amount of perceived monoamine stored (thus causing a release). The euphoria results from its dual action of inhibition of reuptake through transporters (back into the vesicle) and subsequent binding to their respective receptors.

Are endorphins stored in such a way that this type of action is even possible?
 
qwe said:
are there any 'opioid reuptake inhibitors'?

That would be intersting!!

Since GABA reuptake inhibitors (Tiagabine), Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (Prozac) or Dopamine Reuptale Inhibitors are all miracle drugs, an Opioid reuptake inhibitor would be wonderful!
 
Can anybody point me to some structural diagrams or at least overviews of how endorphins are stored, released, taken back up (if they are at all). I can't find anything substantial about the endo opiate system. Thanks!
 
I think I have read before that endorphins are not involved in a reuptake mechanism, but I could be wrong.

I looked into two two pretty standard textbooks on pharmacology, and neither seemes to have much to say about endogenous opioid elimination. Nestler et al babble something about them being found in high concentrations in the "PAG" (which I could not for the life of me figure out what it stands for), and describe cascades that don't say much about what we're talking about here.

If absolutely necessary, the whole thing covers just a single page, I guess I could scan it and post it here. But I really don't think it is very important.
 
From a quick browse of PubMed it looks like endogenous opioid peptides are stored in and released from storage vesicles like other neurotransmitters;


FASEB J. 2006 Oct;20(12):2124-6. Epub 2006 Sep 11. Links
Prodynorphin storage and processing in axon terminals and dendrites.Yakovleva T, Bazov I, Cebers G, Marinova Z, Hara Y, Ahmed A, Vlaskovska M, Johansson B, Hochgeschwender U, Singh IN, Bruce-Keller AJ, Hurd YL, Kaneko T, Terenius L, Ekström TJ, Hauser KF, Pickel VM, Bakalkin G.
Department of Clinical Neuroscience, Karolinska Institute, Stockholm, Sweden.

The classical view postulates that neuropeptide precursors in neurons are processed into mature neuropeptides in the somatic trans-Golgi network (TGN) and in secretory vesicles during axonal transport. Here we show that prodynorphin (PDYN), precursor to dynorphin opioid peptides, is predominantly located in axon terminals and dendrites in hippocampal and striatal neurons. The molar content of unprocessed PDYN was much greater than that of dynorphin peptides in axon terminals of PDYN-containing neurons projecting to the CA3 region of the hippocampus and in the striatal projections to the ventral tegmental area. Electron microscopy showed coexistence of PDYN and dynorphins in the same axon terminals with occasional codistribution in individual dense core vesicles. Thus, the precursor protein is apparently stored at presynaptic sites. In comparison with the hippocampus and striatum, PDYN and dynorphins were more equally distributed between neuronal somata and processes in the amygdala and cerebral cortex, suggesting regional differences in the regulation of trafficking and processing of the precursor protein. Potassium-induced depolarization activated PDYN processing and secretion of opioid peptides in neuronal cultures and in a model cell line. Regulation of PDYN storage and processing at synapses by neuronal activity or extracellular stimuli may provide a local mechanism for regulation of synaptic transmission.


...but it looks like they are cleared by enzymic degradation quickly enough that there is no reuptake mechanism needed.


J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2001 Jul;298(1):57-61. Links
In vivo pharmacokinetics of selective mu-opioid peptide agonists.Szeto HH, Lovelace JL, Fridland G, Soong Y, Fasolo J, Wu D, Desiderio DM, Schiller PW.
Department of Pharmacology, Weill Medical College of Cornell University, New York, New York 10021, USA. [email protected]

Recent evidence suggests that highly selective mu-opioid agonists may provide good analgesia with less development of tolerance and dependence. H-Tyr-D-Arg-Phe-Lys-NH2 (DALDA) and H-Dmt-D-Arg-Phe-Lys-NH2 ([Dmt1]DALDA) were found to display high binding affinity and much greater selectivity for the mu-opioid receptor (K(i)delta/K(i)mu) > 10,000) compared with H-Tyr-D-Ala-Gly-MePhe-Gly-ol (DAMGO). In addition, [Dmt1]DALDA was 3000-fold more potent than morphine when administered intrathecally. A potential problem with peptide analogs as therapeutic agents is their susceptibility to enzymatic degradation in vivo and short elimination half-lives. In this study, we compared the stability of DAMGO, DALDA, and [Dmt1]DALDA after systemic administration in sheep. Peptide concentrations were measured using high performance liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry. When incubated in sheep blood at 37 degrees C, DAMGO, DALDA, and [Dmt1]DALDA were stable over 2 h. When given intravenously to sheep, the apparent volume of distribution was 50 to 80 ml/kg for all three peptides, suggesting that distribution was limited to blood volume. Plasma clearance of DAMGO (223 ml/kg/h) was 10-fold faster than DALDA and [Dmt1]DALDA (24 ml/kg/h), and their elimination half-lives were 0.24, 1.5, and 1.8 h, respectively. The half-lives of DALDA and [Dmt1]DALDA are even longer than morphine or meperidine in sheep. These favorable pharmacokinetic properties of DALDA and [Dmt1]DALDA, together with their mu-selectivity, potency, and long duration of action, make them ideal candidates as opioid analgesics.
 
mad_scientist said:
From a quick browse of PubMed it looks like endogenous opioid peptides are stored in and released from storage vesicles like other neurotransmitters;


...but it looks like they are cleared by enzymic degradation quickly enough that there is no reuptake mechanism needed.

It'd be nice to have something that could inhibit the breakdown of the opioid peptides, though. Perhaps it'd make for an antidepressant if the effects are mild.
 
wouldn't this just result in downregulation of opiod receptors?

My understanding is that SSRIs do not downregulation HT receptors because for the most part they are used when someone is suffering depression and are naturally low on serotonin for whatever reason. So, its a compensation mechanism.

But, if your endogenous opiods are being released at normal rates, I would guess either less opiods would bind due to downregulation, less opiod peptides would be synthesized, or less peptides would be released from storage.

Am I way off the mark?
 
>>My understanding is that SSRIs do not downregulation HT receptors because for the most part they are used when someone is suffering depression and are naturally low on serotonin for whatever reason.>>

Unfortunately, this is not how it works. The brain great at returning to homeostasis, even if that homeostasis causes dysphoria. Depressed people's HT receptors downregulate too. Furthermore, SSRIs' therapeutic effects kick in in about 2 weeks, when downregulation would be kicking in, not in a few hours,when serotonin levels peak. Finally, it is hard to measure whether depressed people lack serotonin in the first place, as monitoring metabolites in cerebrospinal fluid is highly unreliable.

ebola
 
nuke said:
It'd be nice to have something that could inhibit the breakdown of the opioid peptides, though. Perhaps it'd make for an antidepressant if the effects are mild.

IIRC it is claimed that D-Phenylalanine does this, but I have no idea whether it's true.

samadhi_smiles said:
My crude understanding of dopamine or serotonin release is that the compound 'invades' the vesicle and thereby inflates the amount of perceived monoamine stored (thus causing a release).

AFAIK releasers actually displace the neurotransmitter from their vesicles into the axon terminal, then the neurotransmitters are released into the synaptic cleft through reuptake transporters, which the releasers make work in reverse.

ebola? said:
Unfortunately, this is not how it works. The brain great at returning to homeostasis, even if that homeostasis causes dysphoria.
Are you sure? I think this is an important question. If you have a deficiency of some chemical and take a drug to increase its levels, does the homeostatic mechanism work to reset the levels of the chemical to your old deficient levels, or to normal levels?

Is there any way to actually adjust the "base value" of the homeostatic mechanism upwards, rather than just increasing the levels of the chemical?

As you mentioned, down-regulation of serotonin receptors is supposed to be one of the things that makes SSRIs work after a few weeks. But I think the hypothesis is that the auto-receptors are being especially down-regulated, which increases serotonin again.

Btw, maybe I just imagined it, but when I started sertraline I had sensations reminiscent of psilocybin (I found this very nice :)) (but no trip). This has now disappeared. I guess that was my 5-HT2a receptors being activated, which are now down-regulated. Placebo or has anyone experienced this as well?
 
>>Are you sure? I think this is an important question. If you have a deficiency of some chemical and take a drug to increase its levels, does the homeostatic mechanism work to reset the levels of the chemical to your old deficient levels, or to normal levels?>>

Yes, I am sure. To reiterate, two important points:
1. The notion that these sorts of deficiencies are present in psychopathological individuals has not clearly been established. To make an analogy, if coffee makes me less sleepy, does that indicate that I have an overabundance of adenosine in my brain?
2. The criteria for these "deficiencies" are imposed by doctors, not the brain. For the brain, normal is whatever it moves towards naturally, even if its natural state is very unpleasant.

>>
Is there any way to actually adjust the "base value" of the homeostatic mechanism upwards, rather than just increasing the levels of the chemical?
>>

Not that I've heard of, but hey, we might come up with something that does. Who knows...

>>Btw, maybe I just imagined it, but when I started sertraline I had sensations reminiscent of psilocybin (I found this very nice ) (but no trip). This has now disappeared. I guess that was my 5-HT2a receptors being activated, which are now down-regulated. Placebo or has anyone experienced this as well?>>

Sounds plausible to me.

ebola
 
>>Btw, maybe I just imagined it, but when I started sertraline I had sensations reminiscent of psilocybin (I found this very nice ) (but no trip). This has now disappeared. I guess that was my 5-HT2a receptors being activated, which are now down-regulated. Placebo or has anyone experienced this as well?>>
Doesn't sound very plausible to me. Its not simply that your 5HT2a and 5HT2c receptors are being activated, but rather how they are being activated. Psilocybin modulates post-synaptic neurons in a very unusual (at least compared to serotonin) way.

But, that the neurophysiological underpinnings are not identical does not mean that similar shift in felt subjective consciousness cannot be experience, just a different stroke in the noggin is going on.
 
ebola? said:
Yes, I am sure. To reiterate, two important points:
1. The notion that these sorts of deficiencies are present in psychopathological individuals has not clearly been established. To make an analogy, if coffee makes me less sleepy, does that indicate that I have an overabundance of adenosine in my brain?

Well, it depends on our definition of deficiency and overabundance. If we are talking about your levels of adenosine compared to the mean value in the population, then yes, the fact that coffee makes you less sleepy doesn't imply that you have an adenosine overabundance.

But is the comparison to the mean value really the useful definition? I don't think so. I think a better definition for the "right" adenosine level is simply that level which is most useful for you. So by that definition, you have an overabundance of adenosine.

Similarly, I think the "right" serotonin levels for someone with depression are those which make one able to cope with the depression best.
 
>>But is the comparison to the mean value really the useful definition? I don't think so. I think a better definition for the "right" adenosine level is simply that level which is most useful for you. So by that definition, you have an overabundance of adenosine.

Similarly, I think the "right" serotonin levels for someone with depression are those which make one able to cope with the depression best.>>

A couple points:
1. What is optimal for me? I, for one, would live a more fun and productive life if I felt like I were high on amphetamines and opiates all the time. I don't think that this alone means that I am deficient in monoamines and endorphins.
2. It is equally plausible that anti-depressants treat symptoms of depression through serotonergic action when the original problem that gives rise to depression in the first place is caused by something else. People generally tolerate the cranial biopsies that would be necessary to measure their serotonin pretty poorly. :)

ebola
 
Sorry for the late answer...

ebola? said:
A couple points:
1. What is optimal for me? I, for one, would live a more fun and productive life if I felt like I were high on amphetamines and opiates all the time. I don't think that this alone means that I am deficient in monoamines and endorphins.

Well, doesn't it become an argument on semantics at this point? Maybe "deficient" isn't the right word, but if amps/opiates make you more happy and productive and if there weren't any tolerance/costs/side effects/etc. issues (for the sake of argument - obviously that is not the case), then I think it would be rational to take them all the time.

2. It is equally plausible that anti-depressants treat symptoms of depression through serotonergic action when the original problem that gives rise to depression in the first place is caused by something else.

True. I think this isn't necessarily bad. Sometimes it is impossible to change the cause. Sometimes it might be multicausal (psychological and primary neurotransmitter problems) and the drug can at least fix one part. Thirdly and I think most importantly, the cause and the symptoms can be in a positive feedback loop (e.g., loneliness and dysphoria); perhaps drugs can break one part of the loop.
 
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