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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Millionnaires have some more money

Of course they use the system. Capitalism needs a healthy, capable workforce who will sell their labour at the lowest wage. Hence hospitals, schools and structural unemployment / "benefits".
 
Shambles said:
They do use the system. Maybe not as much as the rest of us but they do. The system they help fund underpins everything they do. They need it as much as we all do. They just have other options available if they choose - private healthcare, education or whatever.
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I disagree. Our system is far superior to say Indias where they have no healthcare or schooling, but employers don't benefit from operating here really. If rich people started using the social care system like everyone else it would collapse. It relys on them simultaneously paying for the system and not using it.
 
knockando said:
Of course they use the system. Capitalism needs a healthy, capable workforce who will sell their labour at the lowest wage. Hence hospitals, schools and structural unemployment / "benefits".
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Employers got along just fine in the Victorian period when none of those things existed. Of course they benefit slightly, but you are being ungenuine to suggest that the primary beneficiary of these things is the recievers, and that's by a long way too.
 
Mr Smokes Blunts. said:
Employers got along just fine in the Victorian period when none of those things existed. Of course they benefit slightly, but you are being ungenuine to suggest that the primary beneficiary of these things is the recievers, and that's by a long way too.
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The Victorian period was the infancy of capitalism. They were still learning!

And don't worry, they're not that bright. They're more than capable of taking our hospitals, schools and benefits away again.

ungenuine? recievers? have you been drinking??
 
Mr Smokes Blunts. said:
If you can't verbalise it, how is your magic political theory going to turn the world into the dream fairy land you think it will?
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This is what 1920's physics said when they turned on Einsieins theory's especialy the quantum mechanics garbage.
However as we start to use maybe about 10% of our brains and realise that the laws of everything fit nicely in 10 dimensions I have faith in the future that my utopian world is closer than we think.
My views are why is are crude invented language the best form of communication?
In this thread it's politics and today because of the 4 dimensional world we live in the barriers between us prevent us from finding a solution together without argueing and insulting each other.
Just imagine other ways we could of communicated to each other in other dimensions where the learned boundaries caused the friction.
It's a higher dimensional world where we would realise that every atom and sub-atomic particle in our bodies, the computers, the train, the air, the Earth and Everything was all connected in a perfect harmony.
Learned language by the defenders of the four known dimensions is such a crude communication tool.
In this higher dimension we would be free of friction which when you think about it really doesn't matter.
 
Shambles said:
...My ideal political set-up would probably be some form of anarchy. But again, that's more or less pure idealism - bit too advanced for us to manage at this stage of development. Communism is - as is often pointed out - a great idea never put into practice. The pseudo-communist states kinda pissed in the pool tho so it probably never will now.

I also rather like the term "left-wing libertarian". Partly cos it pisses of the ultra-right kinda libertarians but also cos it appeals as an idea - give folks the freedoms they have a right to but not at the expense of others. Sort of. I'm not very good at politics (you may have noticed ;)) but I know what I mean even if I can't really explain it properly 8)
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(i doubt i'm bang on - i didn't google check my memory - and forgive me if i miss out a few 'imho's). Another example of terms being twisted is anarchism itself (as opposed to the more general term anarchy) - the 'libertarian socialist' strain is roughly another name for the tradition of left-anarchism which has been around longer than socialism (at least as old as William Godwin (mary shelly's dad) or even Lao Tsu's taoism).

However if i describe myself as an anarchist to most people they assume i mean some sort of violent free-for-all a la johnny rotten. Anarchism doesn't mean that to me (and most left-anarchists e.g. chomsky) - it simply means a lack of a heirarchy with power over you - in most 'left' forms it includes democracy of the purest type (i.e. direct democracy along the lines of syntagma square in greece or elements of occupy). It doesn't mean no law, it just means you have a direct say in any law over you in a direct democratic fashion (not the bullshit fraction-of-millions mind-controlled-herd choice-of-two-colours version we have here)

The details of how anarchism will work are not set in stone by any one thinker, and are variable to circumstance (how else could it be?), but based on core principles of freedom (real freedom, not freedom to keep your unequal share of the world's wealth to yourself). This flexibility and primacy of freedom are what shucked off my previous (vaguely) marxist-communist views, which always seemed too proscriptive, dogmatic and reliant on 19th century philosophy to be much use on the ground (too enamoured of the god-like 'dialectic' process of history).

As for examples showing anarchism can work, see anarchists (anarcho-syndicalists) in the spanish civil war in my last post, or the Ukraine under Makhno in the 1920s (destroyed again by the soviets, only this time under lenin) (not many i know, but proof of concept imo).

Further complicating the term is the anarcho-capitalist strain developed mostly in america, which is roughly the same as (right-)libertarianism, or aspects of full-on thatcherism - i.e. get rid of government so that rich people can keep all their money. (thatcherism (neo-liberalism) may want to appear this way when it suits, but fully relies on the state when the economic cycle dictates, as in 2008 ) (don't do a fucking smiley).

I usually use socialist to describe myself to strangers (if they ask) because most people have already got a not too bad opinion of that due to the (ab)use of the term to describe certain modern state-based-capitalism arrangements (i.e. social democrats of europe, FDR or (shudder) labour). I know that i mean it in the same way as meant by the original socialists (e.g. marx, bakunin, proudhon etc. (or more modern ones like rocker, chomsky etc.)), and i try and put it this way if i get a chance (and maybe then try and explain my view of anarchism too - i'm a glutton for verbiage)

/jesus - sorry for the long rant again (friday's started already!) a year's lurking and then this!

//(if you want to read about anarchism, 'demanding the impossible' by peter somebody (i lent the book out) is a good round up (there's a quite good 45 min program in the 'in our time' archive on radio 4 website about it too (showing my age?))

///any chance of engagement with my admittedly over-long rants MSB? i don't want to troll, i'm genuinely interested in your take (especially in as much as there may be crossover on the anarchism end)
 
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Mr Smokes Blunts. said:
Vurtual ill reply tomorrow or the day after mate, I'm gonna go out and get fucked up now :D
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cheers - look forward to it (i find the best way to clarify my own views is to hear (i'm guessing) contradictory views) i'm staying in and already fucked up and going to play with my max/msp
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....

^^while i sometimes feel like applying physical violence when arguing politics, i still (up to now) remember i'm a hippy (by birth anyway), and that there's only one soul in the universe which the illusion of time makes us think is different in each of us (man) - like there's only one photon in the universe (see richard feynman) - i believe in the photon (not sure about the soul; maybe the single universal photon is the universal soul...) /(shut up you cosmic div, this is a politics thread!)/
 
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Mr Smokes Blunts. said:
That's an element of my argument. The main one being that life is so unfair that no amount of human effort or even totalitarian effort can change that.
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So why are you still posting?

Kill yourself.

You obviously had a great birthday, on Bluelight, with no friends (mystery that)
 
Shambles said:
So your argument is essentially "life's unfair so tough shit" is it? I would tend to agree. The difference is that I don't accept that that's the way it should be and also believe that it can change for the better. But only if people stop buying into the idea that "well, that's just the way of the world innit?" cos the world is what we make it.
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I have to admit to not having trawled through the whole thread, but this statement struck a chord with me, to be straight from the start I neither practice or support or believe in any organised religion this this my views are not based around such things.

But for me this is the whole point, we do have a choice about how we behave to others, we do have choice if we use the capitalist system to run the world. The system is being run by people, real people regardless of their social status. I haven't given up on the human race I still believe that there may come a time where things change on a massive scale.

In ways similar to what Terence McKenna believed, I do believe that within us all we know the real truth the single consciousness and that it is possible that one day we will evolve to a higher state and live in a different way.

That may all sound like mumbo jumbo, but it wasn't that long ago we were living in caves fighting each other over bits of dead animals.
 
atm23 said:
I have to admit to not having trawled through the whole thread, but this statement struck a chord with me, to be straight from the start I neither practice or support or believe in any organised religion this this my views are not based around such things.

But for me this is the whole point, we do have a choice about how we behave to others, we do have choice if we use the capitalist system to run the world. The system is being run by people, real people regardless of their social status. I haven't given up on the human race I still believe that there may come a time where things change on a massive scale.

In ways similar to what Terence McKenna believed, I do believe that within us all we know the real truth the single consciousness and that it is possible that one day we will evolve to a higher state and live in a different way.

That may all sound like mumbo jumbo, but it wasn't that long ago we were living in caves fighting each other over bits of dead animals.
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Thank fuck for that someone who looks forward like me instead of repeating history time and time again.
 
missing old pills said:
Thank fuck for that someone who looks forward like me instead of repeating history time and time again.
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We've seen a glimpse mate 1000's of people in harmony feeling a single consciousness, that was real, much more real to me than any psychedelic experience with only a few people. 5-6000 strong no rules no restrictions but harmony and deep empathy. I believe a world like that could exist one day, why not ? greed and hatred are all negative thoughts that can be overcome by all, it seems like a dream but in so many ways thats the point.
 
StoneHappyMonday said:
So why are you still posting?

Kill yourself.

You obviously had a great birthday, on Bluelight, with no friends (mystery that)
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As a washed up middle aged man, who has made nothing of his life, and who spends the majority of his day trying to belittle people half his age to try and make himself feel better about his pointless existence, you're going to have to try a lot harder than that to hurt my feelings :;)
 
Mr Smokes Blunts. said:
As a washed up middle aged man, who has made nothing of his life, and who spends the majority of his day trying to belittle people half his age to try and make himself feel better about his pointless existence, you're going to have to try a lot harder than that to hurt my feelings :;)
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No I don't think you are right in that assumption it's just a fact of life that less people like you around = a better world.
You really don't grasp this concept do you
 
missing old pills said:
No I don't think you are right in that assumption it's just a fact of life that less people like you around = a better world.
You really don't grasp this concept do you
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Really? Cus I don't go around unquestioningly participating in wars like you do, so I guess the people of Iraq might disagree with you.
 
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