Mg-GHB

[Jamshyd]

Back when GHB was easily available, and even now whenever it shows up, it is usually Na-GHB.

I have reason to believe that Mg-GHB is healthier for you, for two reasons:

1. The MgOH for saponation available is medical grade as opposed to the NaOH (Lye - non medical-grade) usually used to make the Na-GHB. Both of these materials are just as easily accessable.

2. Most people do not lack Sodium, but do lack Magnesium in their diet. Mg is very important and generally overlooked, especially for drug-users.

So, my question is, why has Mg-GHB not as popular as Na-GHB (Or K-GHB, for that matter)? There seems to be very little info on it. Rhodium suggests that the saponation process is identical to that of Na-GHB. A lycaeum cached post claims that the process is much more complicated.

Is Mg-GHB not water-soluble?

Without getting into synth details, I am just wondering why did this one never take off?

 

[Ataxia]

Hypermagnesaemia

Symptoms

* Weakness, nausea and vomiting
* Hypotension
* Impaired breathing
* Arrhythmia and asystole, most prominent cardiac symptoms are due to conduction delays, since magnesium acts as physiologic calcium blocker.

Clinical consequences related to serumconcentration:

2.0 mmol/l hyporeflexia
>2.5 mmol/l Prolonged atrioventricular conduction
>5.0 mmol/l Complete heart block
>6.5 mmol/l Cardiac arrest

Doesn't look like something I'd want to risk!

 

[raybeez]

check rhodium

 

[BilZ0r]

Yeah, sure most people aren't lacking sodium; but your bodies designed to deal with big sodium loads. Also, you can go to the hardware store and get NaOH.

Finally, NaOH is made from seawater. Sure it's not pure NaOH, but most of the other shite in it is harmless enough as far as I'm awear.

But I think the major reasons are probably a) availability of NaOH and b) all the common synthesis online were for NaOH.

 

[Jamshyd]

Yeah, sure most people aren't lacking sodium; but your bodies designed to deal with big sodium loads. Also, you can go to the hardware store and get NaOH.

Finally, NaOH is made from seawater. Sure it's not pure NaOH, but most of the other shite in it is harmless enough as far as I'm awear.

But I think the major reasons are probably a) availability of NaOH and b) all the common synthesis online were for NaOH.

While I would agree with reason B, I would be very surprised if a drug store anywhere did not sell Milk of Magnesia OTC (re: reason A).

---

Re: toxicity: most people are defiicient in Mg to begin with. People easily take a gram of Magnesium for bruxism with E. Granted, I do not know how much of the Mg is actually taken up in either case, so it is iffy, I guess.

 

[Jamshyd]

I would like to revive this because I seem to have overlooked the numbers in Ataxia's post...

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I suck at math, and I am actually number-dyslexic.

Assuming the avarage human has 5liters of blood (source)...

(5/2)*1000 = 2500

So I assume would be that toxicity begins at 2.5 mols of systemic Mg for the avarage person. I believe that, like Ca-GHB, Mg-GHB has a ratio of 2 GHB molecules bound to each molecule of Mg. Therefore the toxicity of Mg-GHB starts at 5mols (?).

Assuming my initial calculation is correct, how many mols of Mg-GHB are in a gram? I would assume 5, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

If that is so, then I can see how easily Mg-GHB can become dangerous.

 

[phase_dancer]

Milk of Magnesia has been banned in Australia for years, from memory because chronic use results in renal failure.

1 mole of Mg(GHB)2 = ~150.7g so 1 gram is 1/150.7 =6.635E-03 mol

 

[Ylide]

Whoa, those numbers are a little off. First I think Mg(GHB)2 weighs around 230 g/Mol. Second those numbers about toxicity are in milliMol/L, not Mol/L. So toxic effects start beginning at 2.0 mMol/L, or 0.002 Mol/L.

Now knowing this info we can do some simple dimensional analysis to figure out what a good limit is on when theoretical toxicity should happen. Assuming again that an average person has 5 liters of blood, and that all the magnesium consumed quickly and completely is absorbed and only goes into the blood we can do 0.002 Mol/L * 5 L = 0.010 Mol. Then we can turn this into grams of Mg(GHB)2; 0.010 Mol * 230 g/Mol = 2.3 g roughly.

Now there are some caveats with this. This is undoubtedly a somewhat conservative measure as the body has more liquid volume than that simply found in the blood, and not everything we ingest gets taken up immediately with 100 percent efficacy.

Still 2.3 g of Mg(GHB)2 is roughly equivalent to perhaps 2.6 g of NaGHB, so the dosages of the two are actually pretty close to one another.

 

[Ataxia]

Jamshyd:

Blood plasma only makes up a small fraction of your bodily fluid (I don't know the figures off the top of my head and as fate has it I happened to return a textbook that has the figures in it yesterday). How the magnesium (and any drug) will be distributed to various regions of bodily water will be determined by how lipophilic (ie. it's ability to cross membranes), size of the molecule (ie. it's ability to pass through the small gaps between endothelial capillary cells; I forget their name) and how hydrophilic it is (ie. it's ability to dissolve in bodily fluids). To determine what percentage of a drug is distributed into the blood plasma, one would have to IV that drug and monitor the levels of the drug in the blood plasma over a period of time.

I'm going to assume. assume that magnesium will only be distributed around the blood plasma to be on the safe side.

Toxicity starts at 2.5mmol/L, if an adult human has 5L of blood (about half, or 2.5L, of that is is blood plasma so I'll use that figure). That's 6.25mmol for the onset of hyporeflexia. 6.25mmol of Mg is equivalent to 6.25E-3 *24.3 = 151.9mg.

The RDA of magnesium is about 400mg if I remember correctly.

As you can see, it's impossible to determine the amount of magnesium that one would need to ingest to precipitate toxic symptoms without information on how Mg-GHB is distributed around the body.

Compare the RDA figure of magnesium to the RDA figure of sodium (2-3g depending on your jurisdiction) and that sodium has a lower molar mass than magnesium. It seems the body is more apt to handle Na-GHB than Mg-GHB despite that Mg-GHB has twice as many moles of GHB than Na-GHB.

PS. I'd stick to y-butrylactone, my mineral intake is fine.

 

[phase_dancer]

Thanks for the correction Ylide. Yes, I was in a bit too much of a hurry and instead added 2 moles of Mg to 1 of GHB 8(

 

[Jamshyd]

PS. I'd stick to y-butrylactone, my mineral intake is fine.

Understandable.

I was simply trying to figure out why Mg-GHB and Ca-GHB have never become as popular as NA-GHB or K-GHB. My assumption was that CaOH is not readily available, so that explains Ca-GHB, and thats what left me wondering about the Magnesium salt. I did not know that Milk of Magnesia is actually banned in some places...

Thanks a lot for all the replies, everyone. Not only did you help me understand more about the above, but also about Mg toxicity, which I seem to have underestimated in the past.

Cheers!

 

[struth]

The reason is cause its harder to make.

 

[Wizzle]

I get some Mg-GHB quite regularly. It is supposed to be less toxic (for kidneys)!

Question:

Does anyone know a way to clean Mg-GHB from any excess magnesium hydroxide, I'd hate to take more magnesium then necessary after reading this.

To the OP:

Na-GHB is a LOT more practical. for Mg-GHB to work you have to take shitloads of powder which would amount to putting it all in capsules or dissolving it in liquid.. Since you can only dissolve 0.5 g of Mg-GHB in 1 ml You have to carry around a lot more then with the sodium liquid.

edit: Fuck, old thread. still, interesting topic. Anyone know?

 

[BilZ0r]

Anything that I can think of that will precipitate out the Magnesium is more toxic than the Magnesium (which is pretty fucking safe as far as things go general) e.g. Sulphate, Hydroxide...

 

[Iodjini_dk]

I think it will give you the shits. You know Mg salts are used as laxatives right?

I think few people would find it desirable having diarrhoea to accompany their buzz.

 

[boohigh]

As far as i know the mos healthy salt of GHB was 1:3 K:Na salt

 

[fastandbulbous]

It will cause a hideous attack of the squirts -Mg is an osmotic laxative

 

[Snowy]

It will cause a hideous attack of the squirts -Mg is an osmotic laxative

No, it needs >500mg Mg to cause a mild laxative effect.
--> ~5000mg Mg-ghb ~~> 500mg Mg

2. Most people do not lack Sodium, but do lack Magnesium in their diet. Mg is very important and generally overlooked, especially for drug-users.

Well.... that doesn't make it healthy. Almost nobody suffers from a lack of Mg. Even a quite unhealthy diet supplies enough. If your not addicted to alcohol it's not an issue at all.
BTW: Where i live you get about 200 tabs of Mg tablet for about 2-5€...
Amphetaminephosphate for phosphor supply?

1. The MgOH for saponation available is medical grade as opposed to the NaOH (Lye - non medical-grade) usually used to make the Na-GHB. Both of these materials are just as easily accessable.

NaOH is easily in pure form available. I don't see a reason why anyone should use another form, since it's one of the cheapest substances (also pure) available. So this isn't a health issue either.

So, my question is, why has Mg-GHB not as popular as Na-GHB (Or K-GHB, for that matter)? There seems to be very little info on it. Rhodium suggests that the saponation process is identical to that of Na-GHB. A lycaeum cached post claims that the process is much more complicated.

The problem with Mg(OH)2 is it's bad solubility. --> Reaction is much slower and requires more observation. It's quite hard to get a good (quantitative) yield in a short time without a great effort and good equipment.
Even worse for the carbonate...

The only real advantage of Mg-GHB is that it's not hygroscopic. So it's perfect for storage.

Waterfree Na-GHB is really annoying to dose, since it becomes waxy and sticky. And in solution it can't be stored for a long time. Keeping something like Na-GHB waterfree is also very annoying, when you want to use it from time to time. You are just not allowed to bring it into contact with ordinary air for a few minutes, because the dessicant takes a very long time to make it dry again...

veryone. Not only did you help me understand more about the above, but also about Mg toxicity,

You don't need to consider Mg toxicity here. Long before you have to consider it as a minor intoxication, your dead because of the GHB.


WHY IS THIS IN ADVANCED DRUG DISCUSSION?!

 

[Coolio]

Are you kidding? The level of discourse brought about by this wouldn't have occured in another forum.

 

[ebola?]

WHY IS THIS IN ADVANCED DRUG DISCUSSION?!

Mod, please move to the lounge.