Stimulants Methamphetamine, experience report and information gathering:

[JohnBoy2000]

As per the last post in this sub, for the purpose of treating or relieving cognitive fatigue, I have found methamphetamine significantly more effective at a much lower dose, than I have either methylphenidate (which did little to nothing), or amphetamine (which required ridiculous doses for effect and frequent re-dosing for sustained effect).

Of course I've read ad nauseum warnings across bluelight as to the high abuse and addiction potential of this potentially devastating drug.

For this reason I've been particularly prudent with my approach, understanding the remarkable "relief" benefits I've experienced from it and therefore proceeding such to pay particular attention to potential harm and addiction.

(I've dosed it 3 times over the past 2 weeks).​

Attempting to following FDA approved clinical dosing protocol was the first measure, where it's maximum is conventionally listed as being 25 mg for pharma grade "desoxyn".

As I am using "crystal" purchased on DNM's, I'm unsure of dosing equivalency but for adequate effect over a period of about 8 to 10 hours, I found it necessary to dose up to a maximum of 35 mg (so far).

Additionally to avoid excessive half-life/elimination-time and accompanying insomnia - I'm using nasal (snorting) administration (which I understand also increases bioavailability V digestion).

**
I've used the following link as a generalized guide to dosing, Tmax and half-life per each ROA;

Methamphetamine

N-Methylamphetamine (also known as Methamphetamine, Ma, Meth, Glass, Ice, Shard, Crank, Tina, T, Tweak, Yaba, Shabu, and Crystal[3]) is a classical stimulant substance of the amphetamine class. It is structurally related to amphetamine, however it crosses the blood-brain barrier more rapidly...

psychonautwiki.org

**
Using google scholar to find more in depth dosing information,

https://mn.gov/law-library-stat/archive/urlarchive/a080579.pdf

This information leaflet notes a max daily dose of 60 mg (which is obviously a potentially euphoric dose for an infrequent user).

**
The drugs.com review section gives a series on anecdotal reports on the subjective outcome of conventional stimulants V methaphetamine

Methamphetamine Reviews & Ratings - Drugs.com

Reviews and ratings for Methamphetamine. 77 reviews submitted with a 8.9 average score.

www.drugs.com

...... which I was certainly able to relate to given my subjective lack of success with conventional stimulants.

**
And finally I couldn't help but notice,

Treatment with low-dose methamphetamine improves behavioral ... : Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery

is finding, we hypothesized that methamphetamine could also prevent neuronal loss and improve functional behavior after severe traumatic brain injury (TBI). METHODS The rat lateral fluid percussion injury model was used to generate severe TBI. Three hours after injury, animals were treated with...

journals.lww.com

Papers and articles such as this, illustrating supposed neural benefits of neural compromise in cases such as Traumatic-Brain-Injury (TBI).

 

[JohnBoy2000]

- Conversely I'm attempting to put perspective on the nature and dose of meth use where its effects become chronically neuro-toxic.

Molecular, Behavioral, and Physiological Consequences of Methamphetamine Neurotoxicity: Implications for Treatment

Understanding the relationship between the molecular mechanisms underlying neurotoxicity of high-dose methamphetamine (METH) and related clinical manifestations is imperative for providing more effective treatments for human METH users. This article provides an overview of clinical...

jpet.aspetjournals.org

Working my way through this paper (unlocked):

Sci-Hub | Molecular, Behavioral and Physiological Consequences Methamphetamine Neurotoxicity: Implications for Treatment | 10.1124/jpet.116.238501

"Neurotoxicity can be more broadly defined as a permanent or reversible adverse effect of a substance on neuronal structure or function (definition used by Environment Protection Agency for regulatory purposes), causing loss of neuronal components, loss of entire neuron, histological signs of neuronal damage, and/or behavioral abnormalities. Consequently, throughout this review, we include under this term neuronal degeneration/damage and also alterations in neuronal structure, morphology and function"

Page 12 on it's getting relevant.

"Sensitization to METH psychosis could be functionally related to neurotoxicity because psychiatric symptoms correlated inversely with DAT density in the striatum and PFC (Sekine et al., 2003)"

Page 25

"only a few compounds were able to attenuate METH neurotoxicity when administered after METH binge, namely DA uptake inhibitors, nicotinic receptor ligand lobeline (Eyerman and Yamamoto, 2005), and trophic factors (e.g. GDNF) (Cass et al., 2000); they are potential candidates for treatment of cognitive impairments in METHThis article has not been copyedited and formatted. The final version may differ from this version. JPET Fast Forward. Published on June 19, 2017 as DOI: 10.1124/jpet.116.238501 at ASPET Journals on June 21, 2017 jpet.aspetjournals.org Downloaded from JPET #238501 31 dependent patients"

Page 30.

"there is evidence that electroconvulsive shock restores object-related memory in mice in a chronic METH paradigm (Chao et al., 2012). A separate group has shown that cognitive training may remediate some of the executive impairments in human METH users"

**
- Mostly examines toxicity in short-term and high-dose subjects/animal-models.

Mechanism of toxicity = induction of neural hyper-excitation, associated oxidative stress, etc.

Kind of interesting but doesn't allude to anything in relation to long term use being neuro-protective or neuro-toxic.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Searches on "methamphetamine neuro protection" mostly produce investigations into protection against meth induced neuro-toxicity as oppose to research on low-dose benefits:

Neuroprotective Effects of Curcumin in Methamphetamine-Induced Toxicity

Curcumin (CUR), a natural polyphenol extracted from rhizome of the Curcuma longa L, has received great attention for its multiple potential health benefits as well as disease prevention. For instance, CUR protects against toxic agents acting on the human body, including the nervous system. In...

www.mdpi.com

- Linking this purely from curiosity - Curcumin - which I intend to use in the coming weeks/months in attempt to treat Covid-vaccine (blood micro-clot) related auditory blood vessel blocking which has resulted in tinnitus.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Random article with some neuro-beneficial references, about 1/2 way down,

The Many (Surprising) Health Benefits of Meth

In low, pharmaceutical-grade doses, meth may actually repair and protect the brain in certain circumstances.

psmag.com

"..... in low, pharmaceutical-grade doses, meth may actually repair and protect the brain in certain circumstances.

This was first discovered in 2008, when researchers at Queen's Medical Center Neuroscience Institute in Honolulu, Hawaii, analyzed five years of data on traumatic head injuries. They unexpectedly found that patients who tested positive for methamphetamine were significantly less likely to die from the injuries. The authors suggested that meth could have neuroprotective benefits.

To learn more, in 2011, a different team from the University of Montana applied meth to slices of rat brain that had been damaged to resemble the brains of stroke victims. Then they induced strokes in living rats, using a method called embolic MCAO, and injected them with methamphetamine. At low doses, the meth gave better behavioral outcomes and even reduced brain-cell death. At high doses, the meth made outcomes worse."

 

[Frazzled1990]

How does low dose Methamphetamine compare on the cardiovascular system compared to higher dose Methylphenidate and Amphetamine?

 

[JohnBoy2000]

How does low dose Methamphetamine compare on the cardiovascular system compared to higher dose Methylphenidate and Amphetamine?

The dose I've been using, 35 mg of meth, has nominal impact on cardiovascular activity as best I can tell, maybe slight quickening of heart rate.

The dose of amphetamine I had to use for comparable effect, get me personally and the symptoms I'm targeting to where they "need to be", 120 mg over about 12 hours - I legitimately thought I was going to have to call an ambulance at one time.

Heavy pressure like feeling on chest and chest-pains, difficulty taking deep breaths.

It's the main reason meth is so vastly superior to regular amphetamine, for me.

Perhaps as it targets dopamine more powerfully than amph-sulphate?


Methylphenidate, I think the maximum dose of this I used was 30 mg which caused a hardly noticeable dopamine response.

I don't think I even checked HR etc. as it was so weak and unappreciable, but without checking, nothing remotely out of the ordinary was apparent, no chest pains etc.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

"Comedown assistance".

- Seroquel is not effective for me personally, for this purpose.

- I would think either

Mirtazapine or

Promethazine will be the effective assistance.

**
- 35 mg meth yesterday, pretty much no sleep last night and exhausted today (possibly exacerbated by seroquel).

- It's very effective for my purposes and I'm approaching it as a clinical use-drug, not recreational.

- But improving overall management of its use is going to be important.
Ensuring I can sleep after.

- Stay on top of things in relation to avoiding re-dose tendency.

 

[Frazzled1990]

Try a high concentration dose of Vitamin C (3-4grams) a couple of hours before you're due to sleep and see if that helps.

 

[Atomic_Decay]

This site is littered with the cries for help of people who started out declaring meth was just the thing to treat their ADHD or give them some kind of a cognitive edge.

 

[Frazzled1990]

This site is littered with the cries for help of people who started out declaring meth was just the thing to treat their ADHD or give them some kind of a cognitive edge.

For many people, that is there intention in the beginning. But as you know stimulants can be very habit forming and it's all too easy to begin chasing that initial euphoria.

It takes a huge amount of self control and discipline to keep it's usage under control. Which is entirely possible. There are people who have been on prescription stimulants their entire lives without ever abusing it.

It really just comes down to the nature of the individual, their genetics, family history, mental health, living conditions..... etc

 

[Frazzled1990]

I Snorted about 200 to 250 mg of pure, street dextro-amphetamine hydrochloride earlier today. I feel great.

That's an insane amount of Amphetamine to consume orally, never mind bumping it. If you need that much to feel great, then you should probably consider taking a break for a while.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Less good news:

Methamphetamine Causes Degeneration of Dopamine Cell Bodies and Terminals of the Nigrostriatal Pathway Evidenced by Silver Staining - Neuropsychopharmacology

Methamphetamine is a widely abused illicit drug. Recent epidemiological studies showed that methamphetamine increases the risk for developing Parkinson’s disease (PD) in agreement with animal studies showing dopaminergic neurotoxicity. We examined the effect of repeated low and medium doses vs...

www.nature.com

Cause DA neural degeneration regardless of dose being low or high.

"Mice were given methamphetamine in one of the following paradigms: three injections of 5 or 10 mg/kg at 3 h intervals or a single 30 mg/kg injection. The integrity of dopaminergic fibers and cell bodies was assessed at different time points after methamphetamine by tyrosine hydroxylase immunohistochemistry and silver staining.

The 3 × 10 protocol yielded the highest loss of striatal dopaminergic terminals, followed by the 3 × 5 and 1 × 30. Some degenerating axons could be followed from the striatum to the substantia nigra pars compacta (SNpc). All protocols induced similar significant degeneration of dopaminergic neurons in the SNpc"

That being said, that seems like high dosing, 10 mg per kg?

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Promethazine 75 mg as a come-down aid = acetylcholine blocker = delerium = awful, and causes an almost psychotic rage.

Zopiclone, never responded well to this myself.

Seroquel, actually depressing, extreme anhedonia.

Mirtazapine, very effective anti-depressant for me some time ago, 2 mg = winner winner, chicken dinner.


A come down assist is to me ESSENTIAL in methamphetamine use, to counter the horrible following few days.
It just drains away the after burn-out by getting a good sleep and waking refreshed and clear headed.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

26th May, 2022:

Slight increase in use frequency.

Dosed Monday at 25 mg.

Now Thursday, dosing again to a target of 35 mg.

**
Primary reason is I feel I'm cognitively stagnating.

There's information I'm trying to process and am just basically "stuck".

So I'm sat about literally unable to do anything but count time, my ultimate deduction is to simply use a cognitive assist (again, analogous to MDMA assisted emotional freedom therapy/psychotherapy).

Again as acutely aware as I am of this site having many members whose meth addiction began under similar terms.

**
Simple reality is for myself, I can't function without some kind of cognitive aid.

Formerly the optimal cognitive aid that provided me with outstanding cognitive insights and a decent level of functionality was a combination of mianserin/atomoxetine/sertraline, all at 2/3'rds their maximum dose (60/80/150 mg).

But I've extracted all benefit from that approach and their use no longer offers any kind of benefit.

Having experimented with every other prescription possibility and the primary areas of "off-licence" cognitive enhancers (LSD, ketamine, amphetamine, ritalin, various strains of cannabis), methamphetamine simply seems like the key that turns the lock and allows the cognitive insight "sluice gates" to open.

**
i.e. instates a levels of functionality where I can process information on a comfortable level.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

On the precautionary side:

- Am commencing magnesium supplement use.

As I understand magnesium being an electrolyte whose cellular flux is responsible for the increased action-potential propagation (cognitive enhancement) associated with methamphetamine use.

It's depletation can reduce the efficacy of methamphtamine (thus necessitating a higher dose for similar effects).

- The term I read was, "methamphetamine hemorrhages magnesium".

I've been attentive to a balanced diet, foods high in this but, I figure it can't be any harm to dose a magnesium supplement along with the come-down aid of 2 mg of mirtazapine at the end of methamphetamine dose.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Just on magnesium supplementation:

- The theory is it regulates NMDA receptor activity which is responsible for neural excitability.

Meth use sends neural excitability into overdrive (my understanding of how it enhances cognitive function, increasing action potential activity/neural-excitation), in doing so depletes electrolyte stores (magnesium?).

This mechanism may also explain excitotoxicity and neural death associated with heavy meth use.

- Magnesium acts as a weak NMDA receptor blocker (antagonist), regulating excitotoxicity and potentially inhibiting negative cellular outcome.

**
- There is debate as to the formulations that provide optimal increase in cellular magnesium:

Magnesium Oxide Delivers More Magnesium with Far Fewer Pills

Today we’re giving you the real facts about what form of magnesium (magnesium oxide vs. other magnesium salts) is best - backed by science, of course!

blog.algaecal.com

This was written by a sales team member. Others claim magnesium oxide is significantly inferior to glycinate/citrate formulations.

**
- Methamphetamine tolerance may also be caused by downregulation of DA receptors following meth associated overactivation.

In terms of avoiding tolerance (necessity to increase dose for similar DA receptor activation), maintaining good neural integrity via inhibiting excitotoxicity, and taking breaks between use may prevent DA receptor downregulation..... ?

**
Of course much of that is theoretical.

Many anecdotal reports strongly allude to simply maintaining a healthy diet and lifestyle in between dosing, give the body opportunity to recover and regenerate.

Claiming this offers in some cases, almost complete immunity to tolerance.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Anecdotal account of Magnesium supplementation inhibiting tolerance:

 

[JohnBoy2000]

In relation to potential methamphetamine induced psychosis (which can become chronic/permanent..... news to me):

- As per my blog I'm working an a cognitive intervention to target emotional process and function.

The contention being that emotion = mediated directly through the nervous system.

Thus in a sense, neural function itself IS emotion.

**
- I over did the dose slightly early and experienced psychotic onset.

The acute phase of it had to be managed with anti-psychotics and beta-blockers.

However, passed the acute phase, in terms of managing subsequent impulse/emotional dysregulation, feelings of emotional imbalance, potential violence/rage etc.

- It became clear that application of the cognitive-configuration which aims to directly impact (even determine) our emotional process - doing so largely treated/mitigated these non-acute effects.

**
i.e. cognitive configuration is good = very positive effect on neural integrity and health.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Consider cardiac affect when dosing meth​

above all else, to regulate dosing​

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Fuck it.

Freaking out, panic attacks, over thinking things, paranoia, possibly psychosis?

I flushed everything, all meth, all stimulants.

They're wonderful to provide a "break" and feel better but the after affects, I just couldn't take it.

- Extremely high re-dose impulse also, chasing first-dose euphoria.

- I didn't trust myself with them around so everything went down the drain.

Terrified I might give myself chronic psychosis.


Whilst using, I think sometimes I make great cognitive break through's, but in retrospect those insights would have happened anyways (like they do before using meth, or after meth effects have worn off), just co-incidence they happened whilst using meth .