Opioids Methadone & Tianeptine

[socio]

This poster's opinion is that Methadone blocks the subjective effects of Tianeptine, at least in large part (after dosing for the day). Yet tianeptine is effective for pre-dosing / morning and "missed-dose" "break-through withdrawal" symptoms on methadone maintained patients.

Using tianeptine while on methadone...how much of the opioid effects does one typically experience when dosing regularly? When is it able to "break through" and when is it "blocked" completely?

I think a lot of people will agree that tianeptine has strong opioid activity, especially those who've both used long term opioids and tianeptine (whether orally in the 100s of mg's -- not likely to be safe for those without tolerance -- or IV, which has serious negative drawbacks even when using the straight powder rather than crushed tablets), or used tianeptine to compensate for withdrawal from suboxone, methadone, herion, etc. when missing a day's dose or prior to dosing for that day. E.g., keeping a few mg around if you're on a maintenance drug is wise in case you lose a dose. This works well enough in most reported experiences.

Combining tianeptine in high doses alongside maintenance opioids, such as methadone (to get oneself feeling well enough to get to the clinic in the AM or motivated work later in the PM), and then stopping abruptly, can absolutely result in irritating-to-debilitating withdrawal that lasts ~2-4 days.

Since most reports of opioid users substituting or supplementing with tianeptine at times when they are out of their regular dose, or as far in the daily cycle from it as possible, I wonder how much of it is blocked by, say an average dose of methadone, 50-100mgs, or 4-16mgs suboxone? I wouldn't guess any competition with other "non-blocking" opioids.

Opinions?

 

[muie]

We need an answer

Just like you can feel Tramadol I believe you would feel tianeptine on Suboxone for sure as well as on methadone. Someone who takes 24mg suboxone took 30mg without any problems, just enjoyment!

They act on the same receptors but through different means! I am sure the serotonin enhancing properties would still be there!

Is there anyone on MMT who has used tianeptine on top of their dose?

 

[w0w0mg]

Methadone with block the opiate activity of Tianeptine but not the SNRI activity.
So you will feel the Tianeptine but you won't get any opiate-effect to it.
It would be more 'speedy' per se.

 

[muie]

Since posting I have tried tianeptine sodium and I am on MMT! I have takehomes and most of the time the last day or two of the week I have little to no methadone left. Its in those days I am able to take other opioids and feel them, so I've tried tianeptine both with methadone and without methadone.

Everyone knows that methadone has some NMDA properties! Well so does tianeptine, as a matter of fact it is widely believed that the anti depressive effect isn't due to enhanced serotonin (partly) but mostly it is via regulation of NMDA and glutamate (I too believe it works as such).

Taking it with methadone you will not be able to feel 70% of tianeptines' effects, while you do feel the serotonin enhancement giving you a positive mood lift, the stimulating effects are more apparent and less so for the anxiolytic effects, which normally greatly overpowers the stimulating/energizing effects of the serotonin enhancement. Repeated dosing will result in less of a positive mood lift and emphatic feeling progressing more and more of a stimulating/awake feel in which you will need something to sleep. Usually happens on methadone when using 25mg-35mg every 3-4hrs, usually going through 100mg-120mg within a day or so taken in doses mention or less (15mg-20mg every 2hrs total of 100mg-120mg)!
This feeling of overstimulation can happen even without using methadone however tianeptine would need to be used several days in a row, 3-4 consecutive days, with about 20mg-40mg every 3-4hrs.

Since tianeptine is heavily reliant on NMDA and glutamate, I have also found that methadone masks the effect of this drug. I have taken it with reduced efficiency and higher doses (20mg without methadone is 30mg-40mg with methadone) with somewhat positive effects.

Using tianeptine before methadone isn't a good idea at all, unless you are in withdrawl and cannot wait to get your methadone dose. Taking methadone once a day, ensures that by the time you wake up the next day most of the methadone is out of your system, enough of it is at least, so that when you drink your dose you get to feel the 'euphoria' (esp if drinking 2x your dose) mostly euphoria of not being sick and that mood lift/mood boost that it tends to give users.

I never though why in the case depression methadone works so much better than any other opioid you can name! Its the NMDA! In the case where severe depression hasn't responded to conventional drugs, methadone is a life saver! If I am ever feeling depressed to the point of crying or am on the verge of a nervous breakdown, a dose of methadone will make me outgoing and motivated but above all it gives that NMDA effect that so effectively anaesthetizes the mind and takes the screaming to a soft murmur! The opioids are effective as antidepressants already however they have also contributed to some destructive behavior. IMO methadone has what other opioids do not and that is the bonus ability to further take it one step above other opioids and dissociate you from your feelings, also the reason why you are overcome with memories and emotions when you aren't taking the methadone or withdrawing from it. NMDA which is not only effective for nerve pain but extremely important in depression as it helps with distancing yourself from your surroundings and your situation and emotions extremely effective.

No other 2 drugs have given me such similar effects, as tianeptine doesn't affect the NMDA as much as DXM or ketamine but just as much as methadone. Taking on top of methadone you'd think the NMDA would be increased to a dissociative level, but it really doesn't since tianeptine regulates NMDA rather than methadone or the much more direct ketamine & DXM! It really cancels it out!!

p.s. In short I am saying the same thing wOw said except he said it in 3 sentences. Good job wow! Just look how long it took me to say what you said

 

[Tryptamite]

Opioid effects are just part of how this drug works. There is a lot more to it.. But MOR effects for me would only start around 50mg without tolerance. I estimate I would need 300-500mg now to satisfy my habit.

Luckily the drug seems relatively benign in supra therapeutic doses (aside from IV) at least in the short term.

I will get some to have so I am not completely reliant on methadone all the time. Like changing my clinic to the city I will be going to college in. It would be nice not to be sick the 2hr journey ALL the time!!

 

[strity1994]

Since posting I have tried tianeptine sodium and I am on MMT! I have takehomes and most of the time the last day or two of the week I have little to no methadone left. Its in those days I am able to take other opioids and feel them, so I've tried tianeptine both with methadone and without methadone.

Everyone knows that methadone has some NMDA properties! Well so does tianeptine, as a matter of fact it is widely believed that the anti depressive effect isn't due to enhanced serotonin (partly) but mostly it is via regulation of NMDA and glutamate (I too believe it works as such).

Taking it with methadone you will not be able to feel 70% of tianeptines' effects, while you do feel the serotonin enhancement giving you a positive mood lift, the stimulating effects are more apparent and less so for the anxiolytic effects, which normally greatly overpowers the stimulating/energizing effects of the serotonin enhancement. Repeated dosing will result in less of a positive mood lift and emphatic feeling progressing more and more of a stimulating/awake feel in which you will need something to sleep. Usually happens on methadone when using 25mg-35mg every 3-4hrs, usually going through 100mg-120mg within a day or so taken in doses mention or less (15mg-20mg every 2hrs total of 100mg-120mg)!
This feeling of overstimulation can happen even without using methadone however tianeptine would need to be used several days in a row, 3-4 consecutive days, with about 20mg-40mg every 3-4hrs.

Since tianeptine is heavily reliant on NMDA and glutamate, I have also found that methadone masks the effect of this drug. I have taken it with reduced efficiency and higher doses (20mg without methadone is 30mg-40mg with methadone) with somewhat positive effects.

Using tianeptine before methadone isn't a good idea at all, unless you are in withdrawl and cannot wait to get your methadone dose. Taking methadone once a day, ensures that by the time you wake up the next day most of the methadone is out of your system, enough of it is at least, so that when you drink your dose you get to feel the 'euphoria' (esp if drinking 2x your dose) mostly euphoria of not being sick and that mood lift/mood boost that it tends to give users.

I never though why in the case depression methadone works so much better than any other opioid you can name! Its the NMDA! In the case where severe depression hasn't responded to conventional drugs, methadone is a life saver! If I am ever feeling depressed to the point of crying or am on the verge of a nervous breakdown, a dose of methadone will make me outgoing and motivated but above all it gives that NMDA effect that so effectively anaesthetizes the mind and takes the screaming to a soft murmur! The opioids are effective as antidepressants already however they have also contributed to some destructive behavior. IMO methadone has what other opioids do not and that is the bonus ability to further take it one step above other opioids and dissociate you from your feelings, also the reason why you are overcome with memories and emotions when you aren't taking the methadone or withdrawing from it. NMDA which is not only effective for nerve pain but extremely important in depression as it helps with distancing yourself from your surroundings and your situation and emotions extremely effective.

No other 2 drugs have given me such similar effects, as tianeptine doesn't affect the NMDA as much as DXM or ketamine but just as much as methadone. Taking on top of methadone you'd think the NMDA would be increased to a dissociative level, but it really doesn't since tianeptine regulates NMDA rather than methadone or the much more direct ketamine & DXM! It really cancels it out!!

p.s. In short I am saying the same thing wOw said except he said it in 3 sentences. Good job wow! Just look how long it took me to say what you said

Would u say methadone acts like a conventional anti depressant (ssri) as in it masks emotions and somewhat disassociate you from your surroundings? Because that's what depression medication does. Does this mean ssri/SNRI affect NMDA receptors?

 

[w0w0mg]

Methadone doesn't act on serotonin thus there would be no SSRI/SNRI activity present.

 

[mygreenbic]

Tianeptine help maybe?

OK I took 50mg tianeptine sulfate for the first time. It feels like my breathing is labored. I'm on 115 meth maintenence a day. What is the best thing to stop the labored breathing? Should I take some Adderall? Or do I just feel good and the labored breathing isn't really what I think it is.

 

[g0to]

Yeah bro sure take some more drugs on Top of the huge dose of daily methadone and the quasi-legit drug you've just taken for the first time and are experiencing complications from. That'll be sure to clear everything right up. I mean, you're already blasting your opioid, nmda and serotonin, why not go ahead and put the cherry on top with one of the most potent dopamine releasing perscription drugs? That'll surely result in less side effects and not more, especially once it wears off /sarcasm

And for the second question, who knows except you? Only you know if what you're experiencing is real or not, and if you don't... Idk what to tell ya.

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

Yea, don't add more drugs on top. Call for emergency services, go to ER or at least have somebody around to keep a close eye on you until things are back to normal.

In most people Tianeptine does not cause much respiratory depression. There are even reports that Tianeptine can alleviate respiratory depression when mixed with morphine.

HOWEVER Tianeptine has been reported to cause Dyspnea in some people. Dyspnea is just a fancy way of saying difficult or labored breathing. It seems like you may be one of the few who react this way to Tianeptine.

This means you need to avoid taking Tianeptine in the future especially since you are on methadone which causes respiratory depression.

Hope your doing ok, please report back when you can.

 

[Chloralhydro]

I woke up this morning in mild tianeptine sodium withdrawal. I had used for couple weeks at 1.5 G a day at the end, then I took a week off and started feeling better, then I got this recent batch and have nearly used 30grams in 10 days. Anyways, I took 700mg soma + 400mg lyrica last night alongside taking minimal doses of tianeptine throughout the day and night. I got really intoxicated.

Anyways, today I took 10mg methadone about 1.5 hours ago. Like I said I was in mild withdrawal from the tia and somewhat hungover but not in a horrible way from the lyrica.
About 1.5 hours into the methadone, I just took roughly 250 mg of Tianeptine sodium orally as a kind of taper/detox dose of tia, and to hopefully make the methadone stronger. I certainly feel the methadone starting to creep up. I didn't really feel the tianeptine, I just started to feel the methadone stronger so I think the tia worked in relieving withdrawal so that the methadone isn't using a lot of its power towards withdrawal and is instead now just like I took it with no tolerance.