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"Mental Illness" (Depression/Anxiety)

This world is depressing & creates anxiety. When I was in collage I told everyone in class that most ppl I meet who are "depressed" have good reasons 4 being depressed! The anxiety problem (agoraphobia) was a little harder to overcome. For me, it was kinda a miracle that helped me . . . somewhat of a "born again" experience, which I wrote about here: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=377599

I also believe nutrition is a cause of depression too. (Not getting enough vitamin C & D.)
 
I, personally, do not believe that GP's should even be able to prescribe anti-depressants until we have an actual test that can detect levels of brain chemicals. (Or do we?? I've never heard of anyone having this test done, if so...) If the results show a chemical imbalance then IMO meds are in order, if not, then counseling is the answer.

While there are tests to check for neurotransmitters levels, these are quite difficult to interpret, especially for your typical psychiatrist.

Zaneo, can you expand upon what you perceive as anxiety and/or depression, specifically the severity of these symptoms? I believe that in the vast majority of cases, depression should not be treated with medication (GAD is a bit trickier). There is nothing particularly unusual with a typical person experiencing some form of "depression" at some time (keep in mind, the term "depression" is vague at best). This being said, some major depressive episodes most definitely require medication, but I believe these cases to be far rarer than reported.

I had asked a few physicians if they prescribe anti-depressants to every patient that comes in complaining of "depression", and essentially the answers were yes (after roundabout rationalizations, for example, "they wouldn't be coming in to see me if they weren't really depressed”).

I have no real clue about the efficacy of psychotherapy, but supposedly it is somewhat useful in regards to OCD and perhaps GAD. If this does work, I suppose it is a better alternative than medication. Psychotherapy could likely be effective in the many cases of supposed "mild" depression or mild "melancholia" that are currently being treated with medication.

Perhaps try exercise and DHEA, which is available OTC (25mg a day if you are a male).
 
This whole business of "chemical imbalance" vs. "psychological problem" is a red herring. They're the same thing. If you're depressed, it because of the configuration of your brain -- the chemical levels and brain connections -- are messed up in a way that leaves you 'depressed'. So you have a psychological problem, of not being able to be happy. There's no distinction between "psychological" problems and "brain" problems -- one just is the other. Everything psychological can be affected by messing with the brain, and everything in the brain can be affected by experiences/talking/etc.

Your brain has a certain threshold for getting depressed and out-of-whack. When you get depressed, it's usually because some experience or experiences knocked your brain down below this level and caused all sorts of brain imbalances. You can try and fix this by changing your life experiences (like with counseling) or by directly messing with your brain imbalances. They both aim at doing the same thing. It's not that one treats the "symptoms" and the other treats the "cause" -- they both treat the same thing.

Some people seem to have this weird idea that using antidepressants is somehow "cheating," or doesn't "really" solve the "underlying problem." Complete bullshit! Look, there's no law of the universe that says "when X Y Z bad things happen to you, you must be horribly depressed." In fact everyone is different. Some people are naturally resilient and happy. They can suffer from even serious problems, disappointments, and setbacks, and keep on going strong, rebounding from their unhappiness. Other people are depression-prone, and even little things can send them into an incredible depression from which it's almost impossible to struggle out of. The difference is just in the way the brain is wired up. There's absolutely nothing "wrong" or "unnatural" or "cheating" or "treating the symptoms only" about such people using antidepressants to try and make their brains more like those of happy people.
 
Zorn: Just give 'em happy pills so they can "get over" (forget about or take a vacation from) their depression (depressing environment)?

Sure, I <3 LSD & XTC. :)

The ppl I met who eat anti-depressants seem kinda weird to me but no doubt the feeling is mutual, lol!
 
>>Anyone who says all these problems can be solved with behavioral therapy has obviously never been in the situation of having to deal with problems unresponsive to behavioral therapy. (obviously! haha. my message is sincere though, seriously, there comes a point where it just doesn't work.)>>

On the other hand, many people come to points where their problems are unresponsive to medication, and then find themselves needing to turn to cognitive behavioral therapy or the like (obviously, this wouldn't work for something like paranoid schizophrenia).

>>The brain is an organ. Organs can malfunction, either through a developmental error, or error introduced through a single (blow to the head, perhaps, or very traumatic emotional event) or repeated event. These events cause physical changes in brain structure and function. The brain is to an extent plastic (as in, it's structure and connectivity can change), but not completely so.>>

However, we do not have a good understanding of what sort of dysfunctions afflict the brain or what types of states would be indicative of proper functioning most times.

>>
While there are tests to check for neurotransmitters levels, these are quite difficult to interpret, especially for your typical psychiatrist.
>>

I thought that outside of inter-cranial biopsy...or samples of cerebrospinal fluid, it is only possible to measure metabolites in blood or urine. It's kind of like trying to assess the dietary habits of Washington D.C.'s residents by measuring sewage levels in the Potomac. But, yeah, you're right in that some measure of global levels of 5ht or dopamine or whatever wouldn't be that meaningful.

>>This whole business of "chemical imbalance" vs. "psychological problem" is a red herring. They're the same thing. If you're depressed, it because of the configuration of your brain -- the chemical levels and brain connections -- are messed up in a way that leaves you 'depressed'. So you have a psychological problem, of not being able to be happy. There's no distinction between "psychological" problems and "brain" problems -- one just is the other. Everything psychological can be affected by messing with the brain, and everything in the brain can be affected by experiences/talking/etc.>>

This is of course entirely correct, but:
1. This does not imply that we have much of an understanding of how the brain's configurations relate to psychological states.
2. Nor do we have the tools to make appropriate directly physical interventions.
3. Therapy, particularly cognitive behavioral therapy and lifestyle changes, can can affect neurochemistry and neural "wiring".

ebola
 
I believe that in the vast majority of cases, depression should not be treated with medication (GAD is a bit trickier). There is nothing particularly unusual with a typical person experiencing some form of "depression" at some time (keep in mind, the term "depression" is vague at best). This being said, some major depressive episodes most definitely require medication, but I believe these cases to be far rarer than reported.
[...]
I have no real clue about the efficacy of psychotherapy, but supposedly it is somewhat useful in regards to OCD and perhaps GAD. If this does work, I suppose it is a better alternative than medication. Psychotherapy could likely be effective in the many cases of supposed "mild" depression or mild "melancholia" that are currently being treated with medication.
Why in the world is this? I do not understand this weird opposition to medication for treatment just because it's medication. If you don't know that therapy is more effective than medication, why in the world would you think doctors should refuse to give medication to their patients? The opposition here seems fundamentalist -- as if you just believe that medication is intrinsically bad, that it's "cheating" or a "fake" solution to the problem, aside from any actual evidence.

Supposing it's not unusual for some people to suffer serious depression during their life -- so what? It's not unusual for some people to suffer severe physical pain during their life, either. Should we not let them have painkillers then? Say: "after all, you'll probably get over it eventually, so we don't want to treat it with medication"? What's the sense in that?
ebola? said:
However, we do not have a good understanding of what sort of dysfunctions afflict the brain or what types of states would be indicative of proper functioning most times.
You can look in e.g. the DSM for a classification of the types of malfunctions that arise. And neurologists know a lot about quite a few of the physical dysfunctions that arise. Perhaps you just mean to say that there's an enormous amount to be learned, with only a little understood of the biological underpinnings of many disorders -- but I don't think anyone disagrees with that, nor is it too relevant here.
This is of course entirely correct, but:
1. This does not imply that we have much of an understanding of how the brain's configurations relate to psychological states.
2. Nor do we have the tools to make appropriate directly physical interventions.
3. Therapy, particularly cognitive behavioral therapy and lifestyle changes, can can affect neurochemistry and neural "wiring".
I agree with 1., and 3. is exactly my point. It's well known that studies show that for depression, a combination of therapy and medication is the most effective way of solving the underlying brain/mental problem. 2. is false: we have a huge variety of pharmaceutical (and some surgical) tools to treat psychological illnesses, and are developing more every day. We certainly don't have ideal Godlike tools that would solve psychological problems by perfectly repairing the brain 100% of the time without any side effects -- but we don't have such tools for any type of illness. No one would say we don't have tools to deal physically with appendicitis, or heart disease, or cancer! Not having Godlike tools is no argument against using the ones we do have.
 
>>You can look in e.g. the DSM for a classification of the types of malfunctions that arise. And neurologists know a lot about quite a few of the physical dysfunctions that arise.>>

However, given the prevalence of comorbidity, it's likely that the current typology of disorders do not map neatly onto some sort of array of "syndromes", as symptoms tend to cluster into them "naturally". Furthermore, neuro-anatomy and neurochemistry have been statistically linked to the presentation of disorders, but we still lack a clear-cut causal understanding of what's going on.

>>2. is false: we have a huge variety of pharmaceutical (and some surgical) tools to treat psychological illnesses, and are developing more every day. We certainly don't have ideal Godlike tools that would solve psychological problems by perfectly repairing the brain 100% of the time without any side effects -- but we don't have such tools for any type of illness.>>

We have tools that seem moderately to mildly effective in treating some symptoms of psychological disorders, but their effectiveness is pretty pale in comparison to the level of side-effects. Also, we don't really know why they work in most cases. With SSRIs, for example, they typically take 6 to 8 weeks to show effectiveness even though they increase intercellular serotonin in a matter of hours. So it's not that SSRIs repair some sort of serotonin imbalance.

But, yeah, at the end of the day, if a medication works well for you, why not use it? But one shouldn't put TOO much stock in them. I think people would do best to keep their minds open to all avenues of attack.

ebola
 
in my opinion social anxiety and confidence are 2 differend things, confidence can improve social anxiety however, but let someone with social anxiety smoke some weed..
bam his anxiety is alot whorse, and weed doesnt just makes your confidence go up and down.. i'm pretty sure its neurological
 
I think everything in your last post is pretty much spot-on, ebola. My point at the beginning of this thread is that there's no reason for an a priori dismissal of medication; it's as if not more valid a treatment as therapy. And indeed the best treatment is often a combination of therapy and medication, with perhaps lifestyle adjustments as well.
 
My simple point was that antidepressants are overprescribed, particularly for mild and/or transient depression. I am in no way arguing that antidepressant medications should not be used for cases of moderate to severe depression. Keep in mind, these are not necessarily benign medications, and many of the mechanisms through which they work are not entirely clear. The other day I was reading how growth factors like IGF-1 (centrally administered) displayed anti-depressant properties in the forced swim test, so this may be yet another mechanism...

In my mind, the ability to feel depression is an important part of life, and may play an important role in creativity and innovation (not necessarily limited to the arts). Again, there are situations where medication is warranted, but many where it is not.

And yes, a lumbar puncture appears to be the only truly accurate way to check neurotransmitter levels, but again, any findings may be hard to interpret...

This being said, medication is an important tool in treating depression. However, if you have been feeling a little depressed for a month, perhaps wait a bit longer or make some lifestyle changes before seeking medication. In my opinion, the effects these drugs have on the brain can be relatively profound, so maybe one should wait before jumping on an SSRI or TCA.

A futher simplification: if you don't need medication, don't take any.
 
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With Depression one thing i can reccomend in thinking is:

Focus on what you do have rather on what you dont.

And obviously lowering or quiting the drugs, if you take em%) cause they invite nasty things called demons that will bring every negative suicidal thought into your mind..... that isnt a joke.

Jesus is the only fully curable anti-dote, try it, trust me. Pray<3
 
To answer your question...I think medication regarding mental health issues in a lot of cases is knee jerk. Its the easy way out.

Changing one's lifestyle and outlook is easier said than done. Even when you are willing and able to do this, its sometimes more drastic than exercise and a balanced diet. Insight plays a part, and if insight is severely lacking, this becomes a mute option.


I think an important thing to remember in all of this is that pharms are only as good as the science/trials behind them. In reality, these drugs are very much an unknown, and if they have an effect in a certain percentage of people that's good enough for the FDA et al. Even on the medical side of things, professionals have a limited knowledge...its essentially gambling with your brain, ie: Drug A works 69% of the time. Despite what our society thinks...the Medical Industry is fallible. Shocking, no? ;)

If quality of life is being affected, then certainly pharms are an option.

As an addition, therapy - talking with a professional/someone who has a somewhat objectified viewpoint may work for some. I personally disdain it, as in my experience its something you can do yourself.

I think the above is a lot of the same sentiments people are posting.

Whatever works for you.

That being said I think "Mental Health" is a collective scam by trying to provide solutions to problems that are inherrently larger than they appear. Its like treating an arterial wound with a bandaid. People are lazy, and very ignorant generally and seek the easier route.
 
both ways can be good by themself or combine

zorn said:
When you get depressed, it's usually because some experience or experiences knocked your brain down below this level and caused all sorts of brain imbalances.
but if your Depression/Anxiety is related to the situation you are in (job, family, relationship..)
anti-depressant wont cure the situation

i agree that people are often prescribe meds when the situation that cause the problem is still alive and not taken into enough attention
 
callupjah said:
My GP is completeley anti prescribing me any medication for my anxiety, the fucker just sent me ONE link to a site on 'relaxation thecniques' and told me to excercise more.
Thanks a lot, cunt.

hahaha

That sucks man, but the way you stated it was hilarious. I can actually imagine that happening to me.

"Thanks a lot, cunt."
awesome statement
 
ninjadanslarbretabar said:
but if your Depression/Anxiety is related to the situation you are in (job, family, relationship..)
anti-depressant wont cure the situation
Why? Let's say you're in physical pain because you got horrible second-degree burns. Now, if you take morphine, your pain will be lessened... even though you still have the burns. So what you're saying is just wrong.

I think some of the first advice any doctor or psychologist would give is to get out of a bad situation if you can. But many people can't get out of bad situations. If you need income (or healthcare) and don't have any other good job options, you might not be able to leave your job. If you have young kids, you might not be able to get out of a relationship. If such a situation is making you miserable, taking antidepressants won't fix the situation, but they may make you less miserable in it.

Think of it like this: what does it mean to say a bad situation is causing you to be depressed? It means you wouldn't be depressed if you weren't in that situation, but there's more to it than that. Lots of people in bad situations aren't depressed. How easy it is for bad things to depress you, that's determined by your brain chemistry. What antidepressants do (or try to do) is change your brain chemistry so bad things don't make you quite as unhappy.

There's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there any virtue in being miserable when you don't have to be. So why in the world would anyone oppose medication because "it's the easy way out" or say "if you don't need medication, don't take any"? If you've got a bad toothache, taking painkillers for it is both unnecessary and the "easy way out"; but that's no argument for just suffering from it. Why should depression be any different?
 
ninja' said:
but if your Depression/Anxiety is related to the situation you are in (job, family, relationship..) anti-depressant wont cure the situation


zorn said:

Quite mundanely, I would say simply because traditional anti-depressants (Tricyclics, MAOAIs, and SSRIs) tend to take six to eight weeks to begin working. However, if the situation is more deeply entrenched than that, I would imagine that anti-depressants could be a useful tool to lead people to change their behavior to alleviate the causes of depression (as the depressed state usually does the opposite). In short, a multi-faceted "attack" seems to be what works best.
 
zorn said:
Why? Let's say you're in physical pain because you got horrible second-degree burns. Now, if you take morphine, your pain will be lessened... even though you still have the burns. So what you're saying is just wrong.

Thats very different actually. A more meaningful analogy would be to say that if you work a job where you have to run allo the time, but you have fucked up ankles- get a new job. Depression, if situational, changes with the situation. If its purely chemical, then chemicals are required. In the case of burns- these things don't tend to 'flare up' in certain situations- if your burnt, your burnt. However, if you were actively burning yourself, I dunno a chef over a deepfyer, then removing yourself from that envirnment would help.

I think some of the first advice any doctor or psychologist would give is to get out of a bad situation if you can. But many people can't get out of bad situations. If you need income (or healthcare) and don't have any other good job options, you might not be able to leave your job. If you have young kids, you might not be able to get out of a relationship. If such a situation is making you miserable, taking antidepressants won't fix the situation, but they may make you less miserable in it.

They may, or they may lead to a whole host of other problems. Its not a gamble I wish to take anymore personally; I also truly believe that if you want something; a new job, career, life- you can get it, regardless. It takes some objective though to really know what you want...

Think of it like this: what does it mean to say a bad situation is causing you to be depressed? It means you wouldn't be depressed if you weren't in that situation, but there's more to it than that. Lots of people in bad situations aren't depressed. How easy it is for bad things to depress you, that's determined by your brain chemistry. What antidepressants do (or try to do) is change your brain chemistry so bad things don't make you quite as unhappy.

In my experiece, antidepressants attenuate EVERY emotion to the point tht nothing makes you unhappy or happy. But, for some, that is required and I don't judge that....but as to 'how easy is it to become depressed'- anyone can. If you want to, you can become as depressed or as happy as you choose. That is why some people can experiecne pleasure as pain or pain as pleasure...there is no 'normal', though the quest for this state is becoming increasingly so.

There's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there any virtue in being miserable when you don't have to be. So why in the world would anyone oppose medication because "it's the easy way out" or say "if you don't need medication, don't take any"? If you've got a bad toothache, taking painkillers for it is both unnecessary and the "easy way out"; but that's no argument for just suffering from it. Why should depression be any different?

Physical pain is different from mental pain, barely. But enough to differenitate massively. You see, I can control my mind, whether I believe it or not- its a fact. I think my thoughts, they do not think themselves. However, as I have no choice but to think, in some ways my freedom is curtailed- but because I can think about as many or as little things as I want, freedoms balance is restored.

Or put it this way; I can alleviate mental sufferring though willpower a lot easier then physical pain. Burns damage the nerves, and thus cause physical pain, to which our body responds automatically, after billions of years of honing....however, mental sufferring is something new and unheard of prior to a million years ago or so, and we have a lot more flexiblity when dealing with it.
 
I think there is too much on an emphasis on psychologists using face to face therapy to find roots to certain behaviors. For scientists, it all seems a little metaphysical to me. I think the reality we have to work with is a material one. I agree that current anti-depressants are largely ineffective, but just because they are yet to invent more therapeutic and effective drugs does not mean mental illness is not a neuro-chemical issue. It's becoming clearer the the roots of all human experience are biological with the advent of better imaging techniques. Thankfully, there is a departure from the view that human beings are products of social conditioning through a vague, "culture". So basically, the best thing you can do is read up on the different drugs. Get your information from journal articles and books, as websites are bias in general. I found that the atypical anti-depressants like Mirtazapine worked best for me as they aided in sleep as well. I also think that psychologists are helpful for purposes of release, but I don't go thinking they will be able to rid you of whatever it is you have.
 
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