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[MEGA] God

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This is my blue book from my last philosophy exam. I think it may be of service in this thread (at least for getting my point across anyways!:) ) In case you care, I received an A for it, so I know that it's not a *total* piece of shit.



Proofs of God's Existence

Three main arguments for the existence of God have been discussed by scholastic philosophers for hundreds of years: the cosmological, teleological, and ontological arguments. Many believe that these arguments are highly persuasive, but there is no dearth of literature positing that there are many flaws in all three. Following is a discussion of each of the arguments and the rebuttals leveled against them.

The Cosmological Argument
The main premise of the cosmological argument is that existence had to be created by some original, necessary being, an "unmoved mover" that set the universe in motion. There can be no infinite stretch backward in time; there must be a discrete starting point with one entity that is self-existent (not contingent upon anyone or anything else). Thomas Aquinas, in his "The Third Way," sets forth a fairly convincing reductio ad absurdum argument:

1) There are only contingent beings
2) That which is capable of not existing, at some point, does not exist
3) All contingent beings, at some point, do not exist, so there must be a time at which nothing would exist.
4) If there were a time at which nothing existed, nothing would exist now.

This is a contradiction, so the original premise must be false - there must be some non-contingent being that created all of existence, namely God.

Herein, however, lies the problem. The argument shows that there cannot be only contingent beings, but it does not show that there is only one necessary being, let alone the God that is traditionally worshipped. There could be a million necessary beings, and none of them might match the "proper" definition of "God."

Teleological Argument
This is often called the "design argument" and is best exemplified in Paley's "watch analogy." Paley posits that some objects and systems are clearly the product of intelligent design - for instance, if one were to find a watch on the ground and a rock on the ground, it would seem obvious that someone or something intelligent created that watch as opposed to the rock. The watch clearly serves a purpose as opposed to the rock. By analogy, Paley posits that the universe, too, must be an object of intelligent design given its complexity and intricacy

It is easy, though, to make several counterarguments to this line of thought. Hume, for instance, suggests that such an analogy is unwarranted - the universe is vastly more complex than any man-made object, and not only that, there is only one universe that we know of. What are we to compare the universe to as a watch could be compared to a rock? Further, suggesting that God's designs are similar to human designs implies that God is no more intelligent or capable than a man. And since our universe is flawed and certainly full of evil, the God who created it must be highly inept, or worse - evil. This certainly does not fit the traditional definition of God.

The Ontological Argument
The general format of the ontological argument is as follows.

1) I can conceive of the greatest possible being
2) Existence is greater than non-existence
3) Therefore, the greatest possible being must exist

Descartes and St. Anselm added further detail to this argument by suggesting the following:

1) I can conceive of the greatest possible being that exists in the mind alone
2) Existence in reality is greater than existence in the mind alone
3) I can conceive of the greatest being that exists not only in the mind but in reality
4)This being would be greater than the greatest being from premise one
5) Therefore, the being from premise one cannot be the greatest, so the true greatest being must actually exist

These arguments do make sense on the surface, but it begs the question of why existence would be greater than non-existence. Kant found this flaw to be the most damning because it does not seem logical for "being" to be a proper predicate. It is no different to say "God is" than to say "there is a God," so it is not logical to base an argument on the notion that "being" is something that increases greatness, let alone something that can actually describe an entity. If one imagines in their head the concept of three apples, this is not different than speaking out loud about the concept of three apples that are, in fact, sitting on a table. The ontological argument seems to "define God into existence." It is like saying that a unicorn is a horned horse that exists. Just because the definition includes the existence does not make it exist.

Some try to rectify these counterarguments by suggesting that the cumulative evidence from all these arguments constitutes further "proof" of God's existence, but that seems unlikely - ten leaky buckets hold no more water than one.
 
However omnipotent an entity may be, it will never understand how it came to exist. We know this of course, and what do we do? Experiment, using a model as close as possible to the reality.
 
why use the word "god" then?

i totally agree with your idea punktuality
the universe has an emerging consciousness and is slowly becoming self aware through ourselves

so from the human point of view discovering this, this universal consciousness is indeed "what we were looking for when we were mistakingly imagining a god as depicted by religions"

but let's drop this word (god) once and for all since it's way too loaded with wrong intuitions to ever see its definition part from its historical one

for almost everyone on earth "god" means "independent, superior being of huge knowledge/power, creator of the universe"
this definition has nothing to do with what we're agreeing on about the universe
we are (a part of) the universe. the universal consciousness is entirely dependent on us. we're awaking it

However omnipotent an entity may be, it will never understand how it came to exist. We know this of course
this is not evident at all to me
what makes you say so?
(also, i'm not sure to see the link with this thread. we're not talking about an omnipotent god here, we've put this religious idea in the trash)
 
>>I often think of the concepts of god and the universe as the same thing.>>

This is the only construal of God that I'll entertain.

ebola
 
Check out Baruch Spinoza's rational pantheism.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/
Spinoza's fundamental insight in Book One is that Nature is an indivisible, uncaused, substantial whole -- in fact, it is the only substantial whole. Outside of Nature, there is nothing, and everything that exists is a part of Nature and is brought into being by Nature with a deterministic necessity. This unified, unique, productive, necessary being just is what is meant by ‘God’. Because of the necessity inherent in Nature, there is no teleology in the universe. Nature does not act for any ends, and things do not exist for any set purposes. There are no "final causes" (to use the common Aristotelian phrase). God does not "do" things for the sake of anything else. The order of things just follows from God's essences with an inviolable determinism. All talk of God's purposes, intentions, goals, preferences or aims is just an anthropomorphizing fiction."

Personally I concluded as much when I was on mushrooms when i was 17, and have confirmed it many times for myself. Infinite love is the only truth, all else is an illusion. There is no such thing as cold, only lack of heat. Same- there is no such thing as hate, just the lack of love. Hate and fear and ignorance are conceptual illusions created by our nervous system.

Pantheism gets hated upon as dopey and NewAge crapola. Sometimes the obvious gets hated on for being so obvious. But of course we are holy. Why not?
Of course dogs are sacred. Of course rocks are intelligent. We are all just organizations of light energy formed into pulsing atoms.

It seems that transhumanism/extropian/singularitarian principles align well with pantheistic sentiments.
http://yudkowsky.net/sing/principles.html
How so? Well it seems these philosophies are all about fulfilling the universal potential, and if we assume GOD IS EVERYTHING, then bringing the universe to its universal potential seems quite sacred, doesn't it? If God is the universe, if there is no separation from God, if we are God and live in God, then hedonism takes on a whole different meaning ala hedonistic imperative. Then the current life of humans is only a thin tiny slice of the universal potential- the only we as thinking beings creates changes in our time alive and kicking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism
 
vegan - Before existance is nothing. All you would have to go on is inference from an understanding of nature, be it complete or not. The link to the thread is evident in the 2nd line of punkt's post.

ebola? said:
>>I often think of the concepts of god and the universe as the same thing.>>

This is the only construal of God that I'll entertain.

ebola

What if God created the universe as a model experiment in an attempt to explain God's origins?
 
talking about what god is seems to be silly.

my sock created the universe, then transformed itself into a sock.

proove me wrong.
 
I agree, the idea of some "dude" who created everything in his spare time is kind of silly. I don't really like the term "god" but if someone forces me to use it I will define it as "the ultimate truth" or the way the universe truly is. I don;t know how to explain this idea, but it is what science strives for. We have models of the universe buit up in our heads, but they never accurately describe it. The information that describes the Universe down to the smallest subatomic particle/string whatever, this is god.

Manifespo, I forget who said this, but I tend to agree: "The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference."
 
>>What if God created the universe as a model experiment in an attempt to explain God's origins?>>

okay, this is amusing enough to entertain. :)

ebola
 
The concept of God seems to be recursive.

God (verb): See universe
Universe (noun): See God
 
But if God is the universe, certainly he couldn't have created himself, right? Or else he would have existed before the universe thereby making him different from the universe. The big bang created God then?
 
God is the universe because God is his creation but God also existed before this universe and being eternal, will continue exist after it so the universe is far too limited a concept to capture God.
 
You're all speculating.
The fact is we have imperfect senses, we hardly know what's going on in the room next door to us. We make mistakes, and we're prone to illusion.
How can some guy understand or realise what the absolute truth is without receiving knowledge from a higher source??
 
I tend to consider God less as a Being and more as Consciousness.

Consciousness was, is, and will be. And it created the "universe" in an attempt to infinitely rediscover itself.

As the human race comes to understand its place in the cosmos, it will understand that it is an indivisible part of the universe. And that the material universe was created in a successful attempt to become Self-Aware.
 
I tend to consider God less as a Being and more as Consciousness.
why not as a 'being'?
Certainly not like any being we can possibly conceive of, but why couldn't God be a being? God created beings, right? So therefore God would have to be the Original or Supreme Being.
 
Das said:
why not as a 'being'?
Certainly not like any being we can possibly conceive of, but why couldn't God be a being? God created beings, right? So therefore God would have to be the Original or Supreme Being.

Perhaps it is necessary for some persons to personify God (and to call forth a familiar relationship like "Father" or whatever) for ease of conceptualization. However, it can be a very limiting act. If there is a source for everything, it would also be the source for various other aspects of the universe that we wouldn't consider to be "beings". Defining it via human form and relationships make it easy for people to understand or to perform their religious "responsibilities", but they are but figures of speech at the end of the day.

This view of God is a bit too conceptual for my tastes. My experience of the universe, etc is very qualitative and I cannot really pick it over or analyze it so much. Maybe one day the words will come to me! :D
 
Das said:
You're all speculating.
And so are you. If there were definitive proof that God exists we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Das said:
How can some guy understand or realise what the absolute truth is without receiving knowledge from a higher source??
What exactly is "the absolute truth", God?
 
Too bad Spinoza already said it. This is just the revival of the late eighteenth century of philosophy.
 
>>Too bad Spinoza already said it. This is just the revival of the late eighteenth century of philosophy.>>

Too bad the Buddhists and Daoists already said it. Spinoza was just a revival of ancient Eastern philosophy.

ebola
 
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