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[MEGA] God

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I think it is more productive to seperate myths from fact. They are called the Greek Myths for a reason.

I believe the myths (if you choose to call them that) or stories, or whatever, came from something which was true at some point. As most stories do. I feel the same way about the story of Christ.

Do I believe these stories came from the lives of real people/Gods/special entities/whatever? Yes.

Do I believe that over the years the legends about these people have been changed/made more dramatic/and altered in other ways as they were passed down through the generations? Sure.

How? I don't know, as I wasn't there. :)

Please point me to any evidence whatsover that didn't come down to "I feel this way" or "I just have faith", because that is not evidence. Hell, I am not strictly after evidence, just some sound logic. It is not an attitude, it is an observation about what has been primarily offered in this thread.

I have already explained my view on this a thousand times to you and it's like talking to the wall. You just can't seem to grasp my perspective, and I have communicated it to the best of my ability.

There is more to life than your understanding of "logic".

For some. I'm glad to be one of them. But then again, like I said before, to me my understanding my experiences is NOT illogical. I just can't "prove" it in a way that is satisfactory to Enlitx.. not much I can do about that.

Like I said, head over to www.iidb.org and check out their philosophy discussion, it is like night and day compared to this one.

That's cool. That's the second time you've mentioned that forum in this thread. Bluelight is NOT that forum, you are right. And people here are different, you are right. So (at the risk of making you sound unwelcome, because I truly don't mean to), perhaps this other forum would be a better place for you..?

I disagree that this discussion was pointless though. Between this and the other happy and content thread, I've connected and grown closer to a few of you guys who have experienced things similar to myself, which was cool. :D It's good to know I'm not alone.
 
I never tried to make people think like me, I have simply talked about how probable and valid their theories are, and what the best method to determine realistic theories is. I never said you must act like me if you want to be happy and feel connected, I guess I am wondering where you got that from.

I think you misunderstood what I said. Let me put it this way. I think many people don't find that your worldview jibes with their experience of reality. I think you need to respect that this is not a flaw in their logic, intelligence, upbinging, influences, character, or anything else. It's not a flaw period. It's how the world has taught them. And it's different from how the world has taught you (your worldview isn't an inherent flaw either). And that's OK.

Yes, but many people use this as a license to convey the idea that all metaphysical ideas are equal. That isn't the case. I have stated over and over again that I could never disprove any theory here, but I can suggest it as being solely the product of someone's desires/irrational thought because they have no good data to base their beliefs on.

All metaphysical ideas are equal? Why sure they are. :) They're all equally unproven and unprovable. You're no closer to proving or disproving yours. When you step beyond the measurable and quantifiable, all bets are off when it comes to estimations of likelihood.

It would be an endless cycle of "I believe this" and then "Well good for you, sounds neat". In reality, that is what everyone does anyway.

Yep. Glad we agree on that.
 
I think you misunderstood what I said. Let me put it this way. I think many people don't find that your worldview jibes with their experience of reality. I think you need to respect that this is not a flaw in their logic, intelligence, upbinging, influences, character, or anything else. It's not a flaw period. It's how the world has taught them. And it's different from how the world has taught you (your worldview isn't an inherent flaw either). And that's OK.

Their experiences go hand in hand with my view of reality. Psychology and neuroscience predict that people will believe in fantastical things that aren't real because of emotional reasons. There are clinical tests that ask whether or not you see demons, hear voices, or believe you have psychic abilities. Scientists have long predicted a percentage of the population will experience these events because of the way their brain works. They have attached specific conditions to these specific behaviors. Recent scientific advancements have been able to induce mystical experiences with electromagnetic waves. What I have been trying to point out is that these kinds of experiences are most likely indicative of altered brain function, not an insight into a metaphysical world that most aren't privy to.

And just because you have been raised a certain way doesen't mean it is real or correct. I could be raised all my life to believe 1 + 1 is 3, and I could believe 100% this is true. I mean after all, it is my experience. The problem comes when you try to apply it objectively to your surroundings. This is analogous to some of the posts here. People may believe some of these things, but when faced with the external conditions that all humans share, they don't hold up.

For example, any rational person would not believe you could throw a person accross the room with your mind. To suggest that I am being intolerant or just not accepting someone for making such a claim is ridiculous. I am being rational and thoughtful for applying my critical thinking skills. If you are going to be a doctor, and someone came in claiming they could predict the future, communicate wtih demons, and move objects with their mind, I would really hope you would screen them for mental illness. If you don't, you are not living up to your training, but according to your post, that is exactly what you would do.



All metaphysical ideas are equal? Why sure they are. :) They're all equally unproven and unprovable. You're no closer to proving or disproving yours. When you step beyond the measurable and quantifiable, all bets are off when it comes to estimations of likelihood.

In terms of experimental verification, yes they are all equal. In terms of sound logic from which it is based, no they are not. String theory will never be equated with some of the ideas in this thread, but it too is metaphysical.
 
I have already explained my view on this a thousand times to you and it's like talking to the wall. You just can't seem to grasp my perspective, and I have communicated it to the best of my ability.

And I have explained mine a thousand times, I get what you are saying, I am questioning the validity of it. Just because you believe it doesen't mean it is probably real.

For some. I'm glad to be one of them. But then again, like I said before, to me my understanding my experiences is NOT illogical. I just can't "prove" it in a way that is satisfactory to Enlitx.. not much I can do about that.

Logic stands outside of the person experiencing it. I could say that I think little green people push my body parts around to keep me moving, but you just can't see them. That is an entirely illogical statement, but if just because I believed it was logical does not mean it actually is.

That's cool. That's the second time you've mentioned that forum in this thread. Bluelight is NOT that forum, you are right. And people here are different, you are right. So (at the risk of making you sound unwelcome, because I truly don't mean to), perhaps this other forum would be a better place for you..?

Well, I have migrated over there more lately. I find that after I quit using drugs the level of discussion on these forums has lost some of its appeal. I won't leave completely anytime soon though, so I can bother you a little more ;).
 
Their experiences go hand in hand with my view of reality. Psychology and neuroscience predict that people will believe in fantastical things that aren't real because of emotional reasons. There are clinical tests that ask whether or not you see demons, hear voices, or believe you have psychic abilities. Scientists have long predicted a percentage of the population will experience these events because of the way their brain works. They have attached specific conditions to these specific behaviors. Recent scientific advancements have been able to induce mystical experiences with electromagnetic waves. What I have been trying to point out is that these kinds of experiences are most likely indicative of altered brain function, not an insight into a metaphysical world that most aren't privy to.

I don't doubt this is the case for some otherworldly experiences/-ers. But all? Nobody really knows.

And just because you have been raised a certain way doesen't mean it is real or correct. I could be raised all my life to believe 1 + 1 is 3, and I could believe 100% this is true. I mean after all, it is my experience. The problem comes when you try to apply it objectively to your surroundings. This is analogous to some of the posts here. People may believe some of these things, but when faced with the external conditions that all humans share, they don't hold up.

For example, any rational person would not believe you could throw a person accross the room with your mind. To suggest that I am being intolerant or just not accepting someone for making such a claim is ridiculous. I am being rational and thoughtful for applying my critical thinking skills.

Sure, when you use examples of things that are demonstrably false. Key word, demonstrably. But what if...
... we were living in a very elaborate simulation?
... there was only one Consciousness in all of existence, that lived its life sequentially through all sentient beings' lives, and was currently on you?
... some sort of otherworldly entity beyond our ability to imagine was right now wearing you like a sock puppet, and that's why you're consciously experiencing, right here right now?
... some incarnate spirit was living as you, in order to accomplish some mission?

The possibilities are endless. One can be fully grounded in science for everything to do with the physical world, including the brain, and can be perfectly justified in speculating that me-being-here-right-now is not an accident, and/or not a one-shot deal.

If you are going to be a doctor, and someone came in claiming they could predict the future, communicate wtih demons, and move objects with their mind, I would really hope you would screen them for mental illness. If you don't, you are not living up to your training, but according to your post, that is exactly what you would do.

Such claims would certainly strike me as red flags to be on the lookout for other signs of mental or physical illness. But I'd make an effort not to be obvious about this, because I'm sure such people are jaded with being labeled 'crazy', and establishing a trusting doctor-patient relationship is all about validating people. If I didn't see anything else in the person's medical history or physical exam that hinted at anything pathological, I wouldn't probe it any further, because it wouldn't be any of my business.

Some diagnoses include brushes with the paranormal as a symptom. But no diagnoses are comprised of this alone. Clinical diagnoses almost all involve some sort of impaired or diminished functioning in life, so I'd have to see evidence of that before I even considered any sort of diagnosis, let alone treatment.

Living up to my training means helping a patient find health. If patients are in good health and getting out of life what they want to get out of it without significant endogenous impediment, then their private lives and experiences, including any with the otherworldly, are of no professional consequence to me.

In terms of experimental verification, yes they are all equal. In terms of sound logic from which it is based, no they are not. String theory will never be equated with some of the ideas in this thread, but it too is metaphysical.

How can we know that our logic even holds up, when we dig that deep? Quantum physics is not my area, granted. But I have read science writers, whom I presume have studied in the actual field, imply just this.
 
Recent scientific advancements have been able to induce mystical experiences with electromagnetic waves. What I have been trying to point out is that these kinds of experiences are most likely indicative of altered brain function, not an insight into a metaphysical world that most aren't privy to.

That is where we differ in our opinion and the main reason you aren't getting me. You see the two parts I bolded as two separate things. I see them as the same.
 
no this isn't semantics at all. this is all about respect and manners, the same topic i've been addressing in all of my posts.

you are the main hinderence to you ever seeing any evidence with relation to the subject at hand. you are just blowing smoke with your arguments since you have yet to even consider the topic. you are only expressing antagonistic and troll like behaviour in this thread.
Oh, such wise and beautiful words! Thank you!
 
I think you misunderstood what I said. Let me put it this way. I think many people don't find that your worldview jibes with their experience of reality. I think you need to respect that this is not a flaw in their logic, intelligence, upbinging, influences, character, or anything else. It's not a flaw period. It's how the world has taught them. And it's different from how the world has taught you (your worldview isn't an inherent flaw either). And that's OK.



All metaphysical ideas are equal? Why sure they are. :) They're all equally unproven and unprovable. You're no closer to proving or disproving yours. When you step beyond the measurable and quantifiable, all bets are off when it comes to estimations of likelihood.



Yep. Glad we agree on that.
All metaphysical ideas are equal? Why sure they are. They're all equally unproven and unprovable. You're no closer to proving or disproving yours. When you step beyond the measurable and quantifiable, all bets are off when it comes to estimations of likelihood.


So beautifully said, my good man, and I think he misunderstands and always will. since he is on the proof trip, regardless whether some things can be proven with science or simply experienced and unable to be proven with those tools at this stage!
 
I don't doubt this is the case for some otherworldly experiences/-ers. But all? Nobody really knows.

So how would you discern between someone who has a disorder and someone who actually has contact with a different world than us?

Sure, when you use examples of things that are demonstrably false. Key word, demonstrably. But what if...
... we were living in a very elaborate simulation?
... there was only one Consciousness in all of existence, that lived its life sequentially through all sentient beings' lives, and was currently on you?
... some sort of otherworldly entity beyond our ability to imagine was right now wearing you like a sock puppet, and that's why you're consciously experiencing, right here right now?
... some incarnate spirit was living as you, in order to accomplish some mission?

Well, the example you take issue with was brought up in this thread, so I think it is relevant. Are you willing to tell MynameisnotDeja that her idea is completely false or are you so inclined not to step on any toes that you will stay away from this issue? You just said it was demonstrably false, so why not state that such a notion is absurd? All of your other possibilities simply need Occam's razor applied to them. I could come up with 1X10^99 possible metaphysical explanations for certain conditions, but that doesen't make them likely. If there are good physical and documented (e.g. neurological) explanations as to why someone would see paranormal stuff and what not, it is considerably wiser to go with the empirically supported theories.

everything to do with the physical world, including the brain, and can be perfectly justified in speculating that me-being-here-right-now is not an accident, and/or not a one-shot deal.

Justified? I could justify anything at all. Now if you want to talk about probability or evidence for something happening, then you have a different story. Again, I would say to apply Occam's razor.


Such claims would certainly strike me as red flags to be on the lookout for other signs of mental or physical illness. But I'd make an effort not to be obvious about this, because I'm sure such people are jaded with being labeled 'crazy', and establishing a trusting doctor-patient relationship is all about validating people. If I didn't see anything else in the person's medical history or physical exam that hinted at anything pathological, I wouldn't probe it any further, because it wouldn't be any of my business.

Um, those symptoms are enought to warrant further tests, you wouldn't need any other criteria to be met. So you are admitting that seeing demons, believing you have psychic abilities, etc.. are signs of mental illness right?


Some diagnoses include brushes with the paranormal as a symptom. But no diagnoses are comprised of this alone. Clinical diagnoses almost all involve some sort of impaired or diminished functioning in life, so I'd have to see evidence of that before I even considered any sort of diagnosis, let alone treatment.

Chronic claims of paranormal contact is enough to warrant further investigation. It certainly does not represent normal behavior.


Living up to my training means helping a patient find health. If patients are in good health and getting out of life what they want to get out of it without significant endogenous impediment, then their private lives and experiences, including any with the otherworldly, are of no professional consequence to me.

So what happens if you don't treat a schizophrenic who is functioning and happy, but then suddenly loses it after you had decided not to treat him? That line of thinking makes no sense at all, you treat any illness you can, especially the ones that suggest serious alterations to regular biochemistry.

How can we know that our logic even holds up, when we dig that deep? Quantum physics is not my area, granted. But I have read science writers, whom I presume have studied in the actual field, imply just this.

We can make assumptions based on the best evidence so far. It is a hell of a lot better than just throwing up our hands and giving every nut job with a crackpot theory equal limelight.
 
That is where we differ in our opinion and the main reason you aren't getting me. You see the two parts I bolded as two separate things. I see them as the same.

That would be like me saying that a tumor on my leg is just Jesus touching me. You see connections that just aren't supported by anything in this world, and I see what is.
 
So beautifully said, my good man, and I think he misunderstands and always will. since he is on the proof trip, regardless whether some things can be proven with science or simply experienced and unable to be proven with those tools at this stage!

Does it make you feel better to think that the reason I disagree with you is because I misunderstand? Trust me, I fully understand the point you guys are trying to make, it is not like comprehension is the issue here.
 
science vs meta physics is apples to oranges. The heart chakra has been talked about for years & laughed at by "scientists" but then harvard did some study & found out every human has an electromagnetic pulse 60X stronger then the brains in that region that can be detected 3+ feet out of the body. Now maybe it'll take them another 100years for each other chakra haha.
 
That would be like me saying that a tumor on my leg is just Jesus touching me. You see connections that just aren't supported by anything in this world, and I see what is.

To this i agree. It is simply the half empty/half full debate. They aren't mutually exclusive, and even though something cannot be "supported by anything in this world", it doesn't mean that we cannot somehow (no one knows how)sense/experience/connect with it.

For several years i saw things as being determined by the laws we understand, but over time it seemed very lacking, it was as though i was consciously lying to myself. i felt that it was an urge of pride to have a deluded sense that we can understand all things.

It doesn't make much sense to think this considering, logically speaking, how small and insignificant we are in the grand scheme of things.

Does it make you feel better to think that the reason I disagree with you is because I misunderstand? Trust me, I fully understand the point you guys are trying to make, it is not like comprehension is the issue here.

Here is the problem in this thread. To some of us, you have demonstrably shown that you really have little comprehension of what we are talking about, yet you give this certain assurance that you understand completely. As long as you are so sure of this, you will not be listening to what we are saying.

But you want us to trust you, to have faith in your assurance?

now that is irony.
 
So how would you discern between someone who has a disorder and someone who actually has contact with a different world than us?

Never claimed to.

Well, the example you take issue with was brought up in this thread, so I think it is relevant. Are you willing to tell MynameisnotDeja that her idea is completely false or are you so inclined not to step on any toes that you will stay away from this issue? You just said it was demonstrably false, so why not state that such a notion is absurd? All of your other possibilities simply need Occam's razor applied to them. I could come up with 1X10^99 possible metaphysical explanations for certain conditions, but that doesen't make them likely. If there are good physical and documented (e.g. neurological) explanations as to why someone would see paranormal stuff and what not, it is considerably wiser to go with the empirically supported theories.

I wasn't talking about what MynameisnotDeja reported. I was actually thinking of your example of moving things with your mind. (edit: well actually, I take that back, I have seen a poltergeist at work, and it chilled me to the fucking bone) I'm not talking about people claiming to break physical laws. I'm talking about people getting a taste of what just may lay beyond physical laws.

All the examples I gave you are things that could leave no trace in the physical world, or none we're currently able to detect.

Justified? I could justify anything at all. Now if you want to talk about probability or evidence for something happening, then you have a different story. Again, I would say to apply Occam's razor.

To problems in the physical world, of practical importance to people, most definitely apply Occam's razor. But if there's no way to calculate the probability of anything metaphysical, it becomes pretty much impossible to assess and compare any likelihoods, and anything is really possible.

I see no reason why not to hope for more, and why not let my mind run wild with possibilities.

Um, those symptoms are enought to warrant further tests, you wouldn't need any other criteria to be met. So you are admitting that seeing demons, believing you have psychic abilities, etc.. are signs of mental illness right?

They can be. They often are. But they aren't necessarily. I told you.

Chronic claims of paranormal contact is enough to warrant further investigation. It certainly does not represent normal behavior.

I never said otherwise. It's not called 'PARAnormal' for nothing.

So what happens if you don't treat a schizophrenic who is functioning and happy, but then suddenly loses it after you had decided not to treat him? That line of thinking makes no sense at all, you treat any illness you can, especially the ones that suggest serious alterations to regular biochemistry.

No schizophrenic presents with this as their only symptom. It's not that simple.

We can make assumptions based on the best evidence so far. It is a hell of a lot better than just throwing up our hands and giving every nut job with a crackpot theory equal limelight.

Limelight? I only talked about giving them a pathway to health, and a compassionate ear. And just so we're crystal, yes, I think it is perfectly possible to have paranormal experiences and to have no clinical diagnosis of any kind, that is, to be in perfect health.
 
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science vs meta physics is apples to oranges. The heart chakra has been talked about for years & laughed at by "scientists" but then harvard did some study & found out every human has an electromagnetic pulse 60X stronger then the brains in that region that can be detected 3+ feet out of the body. Now maybe it'll take them another 100years for each other chakra haha.


Got a link for that? This study wouldn't happen to be like Emoto's "studies" would it?
 
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