Huaca
Greenlighter
Marijuana has a place in recreational use as well.
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DPMC Moderators: tryptakid
Medical marijuana is an insult to our intelligence
- Thread starter slimvictor
- Start date
Paregoric is also still used all over the world, there are countries where it is OTC like tylenol even. Its just a more dilute alcohol and opium tincture with various flavorings. Opium hasn't left medicine yet.
The problem with medical marijuana is some of the dispensaries are just bonkers crazy, they will have yellers outside who will set you up to get a script with an affiliated doctor(and you can get one for anything) in an hour or two then the actual dispensary is set up like a damn liquor or candy store with cutesy names and varieties and all kinds of foods an drinks containing THC.
Now to be clear I am for the legalization of all drugs period, an believe its a human right to use drugs as you see fit. But if you're trying to portray yourself as a legit medical treatment you have to tone it down, as it exists right now its pretty clear its a front for legal weed. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but then don't pretend its just like any other medical treatment.
Imagine if a pain management clinic had large glass jars full of all kinds of narcotics up on the walls with cutesy names, laid out like a candy shop. Would you believe them when they said it was all legit?
Sentience
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Garuda, that sounds like an ad hominem attack which is a logical fallacy. You are attacking the people who distribute and prescribe marijuana and saying that means that marijuana is less legitimate as a medicine. That is faulty reasoning. Opiates are even more widely abused and there are doctors who specialize in throwing pain pills at people for questionable ailments. Its no different. Just because a medicine is used recreationaly or prescribed for BS conditions doesnt mean that it isnt a legitimate medicine for some people. Whole plants are still used in medicine like opium, so there is no reason not to consider marijuana a valid medicine.
Some people are just brainwashed into thinking that it must not be legitimate because its an herb. Well herbs can be valid medicines and there are examples of whole herbs still being used in medicine like opium tincture. There are people who falsely portray themselves and skeptics who make a career out of shit talking any natural or herbal therapy while pretending to be speaking from the more scientific perspective...but its bullshit. They are just as biased as the people trying to sell you shark cartilage for cancer....some of that stuff is unproven or even false, but marijuana has some real medical studies behind it and it has been proven to be useful for many medical conditions.
If you dont believe that marijuana can be a legitimate medicine for some people who have certain conditions, then you are ignorant of the facts. It does more than just make people feel good, as the OP suggests. It suppresses the immyne system which is good for auto-immune conditions, is anti-emetic and stimulants hunger, reduces pain and helps some people sleep. It also helps with glaucoma, and there are real studies to back this up not just anecdotal claims.
There might be some false or unsubstantiated claims about the benefits of marijuana as well, but the same could be said about any medicine.
Some people are just brainwashed into thinking that it must not be legitimate because its an herb. Well herbs can be valid medicines and there are examples of whole herbs still being used in medicine like opium tincture. There are people who falsely portray themselves and skeptics who make a career out of shit talking any natural or herbal therapy while pretending to be speaking from the more scientific perspective...but its bullshit. They are just as biased as the people trying to sell you shark cartilage for cancer....some of that stuff is unproven or even false, but marijuana has some real medical studies behind it and it has been proven to be useful for many medical conditions.
If you dont believe that marijuana can be a legitimate medicine for some people who have certain conditions, then you are ignorant of the facts. It does more than just make people feel good, as the OP suggests. It suppresses the immyne system which is good for auto-immune conditions, is anti-emetic and stimulants hunger, reduces pain and helps some people sleep. It also helps with glaucoma, and there are real studies to back this up not just anecdotal claims.
There might be some false or unsubstantiated claims about the benefits of marijuana as well, but the same could be said about any medicine.
phr
Bluelighter
^
Actually, opiates aren't more abused than marijuana. Certainly not in the US.
Anyway...
I read his post differently. Basically, he doesn't agree with the veil of medicinal marijuana used by some clinics to distribute it as easily as possible to anyone who wants it. And I don't think he gave his opinion on whether he thinks marijuana has medicinal properties.
I'm not in a medical marijuana state and never visited a clinic, but from what I've seen on tv and have read, he has a point.
Actually, opiates aren't more abused than marijuana. Certainly not in the US.
Anyway...
I read his post differently. Basically, he doesn't agree with the veil of medicinal marijuana used by some clinics to distribute it as easily as possible to anyone who wants it. And I don't think he gave his opinion on whether he thinks marijuana has medicinal properties.
I'm not in a medical marijuana state and never visited a clinic, but from what I've seen on tv and have read, he has a point.
slimvictor
Bluelight Crew
^ but the reason the author objects to medical marijuana is because of the purported"gateway effect", which is fallacious.
If he had some legitimate grounds on which to object, I would not mind his argument so much.
If he had some legitimate grounds on which to object, I would not mind his argument so much.
Sentience
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Except he is kind of poopooing the other medical marijuana claims besides pain relief and making people 'feel' better.
The thing is that there ARE other valid uses for marijuana besides just making people feel more comfortable. Some people with wasting diseases cant eat enough or they throw it all up and they waste away and starve. Marijuana is not only THE strongest anti-emetic known to man, stronger than their second and third line drugs they offer in the ER, but its also the only anti-emetic that actually stimulates hunger....not good for weight loss, but great for a cancer patient. Beyond that there is also its immune modulating properties. It down regulates the inflammatory response especially in inflammatory bowel disease, which can save someones life as it can become a life threatening condition in some people. Not only that, but it decreases spasticity in Multiple Sclerosis, helping these people to act normal without having embarrassing spasms. Real medical studies can back all this up. Its more than just a feel good drug for dying patients.
Pegasus
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Sorry Sentience, but I don't know what I was incorrect about. I have studied and been very interested in chemistry, modern medicine, and debate for years and am always looking to learn more 
But I don't know what I said wrong that you quoted.
In a 3rd world country a hospital doc prescribed me a brown liquid/colloid to be taken orally for a bad cough that I assumed was some kind of crude poppy derivative, possibly laudanum although it was quite strong, a little worked damn well and felt really good. I don't know if it beats codeine or stronger cough syrup. But, as this recipe for Laudanum from a 100+ year old encyclopaedia shows even at that time the production of pharmaceuticals involved controlled chemical and biochemical processes and refinery, including distillation of alcohol, selection of opium, and fermentation of the brew at a specific temperature. The Wikipedia article for Panegoric gives a percentage of morphine mg/mL, Panegoric is quite refined and manufactured and contains other ingredients like benzoic acid.
Leeches would've been my example of modern medicine using unrefined raw materials. I stand by my assertion that, for the better, modern medicine tends towards using available technologies to refine plants and chemicals and advance medical interactions with people, be it blood tests, medicines, X-rays, or physical therapy. The industry isn't always completely moral but I don't think any industries are. It does serve a purpose as modern medicine is capable of improving quality of life and extends people's lives. In the market if something doesn't add value typically people won't pay for it, unless you accept the premise that everything happens because "some people must be brainwashed". I'm not a fan of pharm firms or the state of affairs in the USA but I appreciate that refined or synthetic powerful antihistamines, antibiotics, etc can typically be had.
I'll take these chemicals over whole plant alternatives (do effective ones exist for everything?) because I believe in standardization of doses and what I learned in 6 years of chemistry at uni. I've also observed that mdma is way better than sassafras oil, and acid way better than mold. But I agree that in my experience consuming the whole weed plant (the buds, that is) is way better than marinol, the THC pill.
When I've gotten really bad food poisoning no amount of marijuana has been able to provide enough "anti-emetic" effect to stop me from vomiting or dry heaving repeatedly every 20-30 mins, and nothing oral works then. If weed worked for this problem I would've found out at home, I really do try to use weed as a cure-all when it makes even a remote amount of sense heh. Fortunately after dry heaving for an hour+ at home and on the way to the hospital and in their bathroom whatever they injected into me worked well and fast, as promethazine suppositories can too. I think others here have had similar experiences.
I've no doubts that marijuana is great for lots of stomach problems and can provide anti-emetic effects and I have experienced these benefits, but we shouldn't, and modern medicine won't, stop research in the field. Weed is good for lots of things but it's not a panacea. If you haven't, please read the links I posted about the placebo effect getting stronger RE: believing any double blind studies w placebo. It's concerning when the people developing drugs and administering these tests don't think Valium can beat placebo for anxiety by a statistically significant amount, if at all.
Garuda's observation wasn't ad hom, Sentience, and I didn't interpret that post as lessening the legitimacy of marijuana for medical purposes. It was an accurate observation of what scares me about the condition of "medical marijuana". Also, Wikipedia says ad hom isn't a logical fallacy but is commonly used in fallacious arguments.
The public's perception of marijuana use is very important for getting weed legalized, and the govt spends lots of money trying to make recreational, non-alcoholic, inebriation look bad. Assume I'm attacking what the pot hawkers and candy or liquor store / chill-out club "dispensaries" are saying while I accept their stated goal of getting me legal weed. Pot shops may come through short-term with "on a technicality/grey market" legal weed but they are reducing the chances of reliably getting me "real" legal weed for recreation mid/long-term. They damage the perception a segment of the public has of marijuana.
I could name a number of medical marijuana dispensaries that cater to recreational marijuana users rather than medical ones and you could check them out and see their shadyness for yourself on their websites or by visiting, but NO SOURCES on BL. The segment of the population that is undecided/against legal weed typically votes more than the weed smoking and pro-weed segment of the public and proponents of legalization need to cultivate a good, or acceptable, image of marijuana use to achieve their goals. So, unless the pot shops' real goal is to make me and many others custies and make lots of money selling weed, their flamboyant grey market hustling is illogical and it's not ad hom, friend
You see, I am very afraid that medical marijuana will stifle legalization of marijuana. I don't mean to be argumentative and didn't intend to write so much, I'm just trying to put forward my belief that modern medicine and science are good for us and that "medical marijuana" isn't necessarily a step towards legalization and may actually harm the cause of legalization, which I think most here would prefer to "medical marijuana".
But I don't know what I said wrong that you quoted.In a 3rd world country a hospital doc prescribed me a brown liquid/colloid to be taken orally for a bad cough that I assumed was some kind of crude poppy derivative, possibly laudanum although it was quite strong, a little worked damn well and felt really good. I don't know if it beats codeine or stronger cough syrup. But, as this recipe for Laudanum from a 100+ year old encyclopaedia shows even at that time the production of pharmaceuticals involved controlled chemical and biochemical processes and refinery, including distillation of alcohol, selection of opium, and fermentation of the brew at a specific temperature. The Wikipedia article for Panegoric gives a percentage of morphine mg/mL, Panegoric is quite refined and manufactured and contains other ingredients like benzoic acid.
Leeches would've been my example of modern medicine using unrefined raw materials. I stand by my assertion that, for the better, modern medicine tends towards using available technologies to refine plants and chemicals and advance medical interactions with people, be it blood tests, medicines, X-rays, or physical therapy. The industry isn't always completely moral but I don't think any industries are. It does serve a purpose as modern medicine is capable of improving quality of life and extends people's lives. In the market if something doesn't add value typically people won't pay for it, unless you accept the premise that everything happens because "some people must be brainwashed". I'm not a fan of pharm firms or the state of affairs in the USA but I appreciate that refined or synthetic powerful antihistamines, antibiotics, etc can typically be had.
I'll take these chemicals over whole plant alternatives (do effective ones exist for everything?) because I believe in standardization of doses and what I learned in 6 years of chemistry at uni. I've also observed that mdma is way better than sassafras oil, and acid way better than mold. But I agree that in my experience consuming the whole weed plant (the buds, that is) is way better than marinol, the THC pill.
When I've gotten really bad food poisoning no amount of marijuana has been able to provide enough "anti-emetic" effect to stop me from vomiting or dry heaving repeatedly every 20-30 mins, and nothing oral works then. If weed worked for this problem I would've found out at home, I really do try to use weed as a cure-all when it makes even a remote amount of sense heh. Fortunately after dry heaving for an hour+ at home and on the way to the hospital and in their bathroom whatever they injected into me worked well and fast, as promethazine suppositories can too. I think others here have had similar experiences.
I've no doubts that marijuana is great for lots of stomach problems and can provide anti-emetic effects and I have experienced these benefits, but we shouldn't, and modern medicine won't, stop research in the field. Weed is good for lots of things but it's not a panacea. If you haven't, please read the links I posted about the placebo effect getting stronger RE: believing any double blind studies w placebo. It's concerning when the people developing drugs and administering these tests don't think Valium can beat placebo for anxiety by a statistically significant amount, if at all.
Garuda's observation wasn't ad hom, Sentience, and I didn't interpret that post as lessening the legitimacy of marijuana for medical purposes. It was an accurate observation of what scares me about the condition of "medical marijuana". Also, Wikipedia says ad hom isn't a logical fallacy but is commonly used in fallacious arguments.
The public's perception of marijuana use is very important for getting weed legalized, and the govt spends lots of money trying to make recreational, non-alcoholic, inebriation look bad. Assume I'm attacking what the pot hawkers and candy or liquor store / chill-out club "dispensaries" are saying while I accept their stated goal of getting me legal weed. Pot shops may come through short-term with "on a technicality/grey market" legal weed but they are reducing the chances of reliably getting me "real" legal weed for recreation mid/long-term. They damage the perception a segment of the public has of marijuana.
I could name a number of medical marijuana dispensaries that cater to recreational marijuana users rather than medical ones and you could check them out and see their shadyness for yourself on their websites or by visiting, but NO SOURCES on BL. The segment of the population that is undecided/against legal weed typically votes more than the weed smoking and pro-weed segment of the public and proponents of legalization need to cultivate a good, or acceptable, image of marijuana use to achieve their goals. So, unless the pot shops' real goal is to make me and many others custies and make lots of money selling weed, their flamboyant grey market hustling is illogical and it's not ad hom, friend
You see, I am very afraid that medical marijuana will stifle legalization of marijuana. I don't mean to be argumentative and didn't intend to write so much, I'm just trying to put forward my belief that modern medicine and science are good for us and that "medical marijuana" isn't necessarily a step towards legalization and may actually harm the cause of legalization, which I think most here would prefer to "medical marijuana".
Sentience
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This is not a logical argument. The argument that because it is used in third world countries so it must not be a valid medicine is a logical fallacy. Comparing it to leeches is also a faulty argument because unlike leeches marijuana has real science to back it up.
Laudanum is NOT only used in third world countries, it is used in the United States of America in the year 2009.
Your personal preferences are not a valid argument and do not support your claim that marijuana is snake oil. You have a right to your opinions but they prove nothing.
Marijuana can be standardized, especially the liquid extracts. There are ways of testing the levels of active constituents and giving people an exact oral dose of whole plant extract.
However, since marijuana is non-toxic and can be used "as needed", exact dosing is not as important as it my be with something like blood pressure medication.
Im sorry...was that an argument in favor or against medical marijuana? I wouldnt think you would want a medicine that would prevent you from throwing up in the event of food poisoning. Survival instinct takes over. However, it seems to be pretty effective for combating the nausea caused by chemo. None of the drugs are 100% but marijuana is better than any of the synthetics that are available.
The only time ad hom isnt a fallacy is when you are not using it to make an argument. When its part of your explanation or justification for your position, it is a fallacy. And wikipedia is not a credible source. Anyone can edit it. Its good for basic research, but is not credible in an argument due to how open it is to being edited by the people debating.
I am a person who suffers from Crohns disease and I did NOT get relief from "modern medicine". The treatments they gave me put me in the hospital and I almost died. Marijuana has provided relief and even helped me go into remission in that past due to its immune modulating effects.
Medical marijuana has its own merits independent from recreational legalization. It is a necessary drug that fills a gap that modern medicine cannot fill or has not yet filled. To me its not an issue of medical marijuana getting in the way of recreational use....its a matter of recreational abusers fucking it up for people who are legitimately sick like me who need it.
Did you read what I posted? I said I *liked* the 3rd world brown colloid based on the poppy, and I liked the 3rd world for the years I lived and worked there. Leeches have science from what I've read, I have nothing to prove that offhand but it can be googled. I chose to present anecdotal evidence demonstrating that weed is not a panacea like some claim, but the in the rest of the post I shared that I am well aware that it is not snake oil, please re-read my post.
My point was marijuana did not work for me in a situation where I could not stop throwing up but an IV drug at the hospital did, marijuana is not a panacea. Again, you quoted wikipedia only, so can I. I am very sorry to hear that you have Crohn's, I have friends with family members with Crohn's and have seen a bit and definitely feel for you. YMMV with any medical treatment, you can have your preferences and beliefs and I can have mine. It's a prioritization of when things become legal and resources available at each person's disposal thing I think. I think drugs that may be legalized for the benefit of many belong in the black market if anywhere, sure not sold by flamboyant pot shops, so as to not confuse the issue for potential voters in any state or jurisdiction.
It is not an ad hom because there really are pot shop "medicinal marijuana dispensaries" that damage the image of marijuana, and make it harder for people to get who don't live in one of the states with pro-medical marijuana laws to get legal marijuana.
I fear recreational users in the state of California with money to burn and no alternatives for getting high may fuck up medical marijuana for those with legitimate need in some places.
My point was marijuana did not work for me in a situation where I could not stop throwing up but an IV drug at the hospital did, marijuana is not a panacea. Again, you quoted wikipedia only, so can I. I am very sorry to hear that you have Crohn's, I have friends with family members with Crohn's and have seen a bit and definitely feel for you. YMMV with any medical treatment, you can have your preferences and beliefs and I can have mine. It's a prioritization of when things become legal and resources available at each person's disposal thing I think. I think drugs that may be legalized for the benefit of many belong in the black market if anywhere, sure not sold by flamboyant pot shops, so as to not confuse the issue for potential voters in any state or jurisdiction.
It is not an ad hom because there really are pot shop "medicinal marijuana dispensaries" that damage the image of marijuana, and make it harder for people to get who don't live in one of the states with pro-medical marijuana laws to get legal marijuana.
I fear recreational users in the state of California with money to burn and no alternatives for getting high may fuck up medical marijuana for those with legitimate need in some places.
Sentience
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Im glad you dont think that marijuana is a snake oil.
I took offense to the title of the thread, that medical marijuana insults our intelligence. Just because most users are just trying to get high doesnt mean that some people are not legitimately benefiting from it in ways that other modern medicines have not been able to do.
And I am sorry you got food poisoning....but have you considered that maybe you would have stopped throwing up anyway? When you had food poisoning you had more going on than just nausea from medication and your body NEEDED to get rid of that crap. Why would you try to stop yourself from throwing up (at least in the beggining....too much leads to dehydration, and IV saline is vital in those instances)? Throwing up when you are poisoned is a GOOD thing for the most part, at least up to a point.
My guess is that nothing would have stopped you from throwing up in those early hours, including the drugs you got later on. By the time you got to the hospital and got the IVs you were probably past the worst of it and I am sure the meds they gave you really did help. However, that is an anecdotal report and does not contradict the pier reviewed scientific studies that showed that marijuana was more effective as an anti-emetic for a higher percentage of cancer patients undergoing chemo therapy, and that some patients who did not respond to first and second line anti-emetics did respond to marijuana....The study was not done on food poisoning though, it was done on cancer patients undergoing chemo, so maybe there is a difference.
Marijuana is legitimate medicine, its not the only whole herb used in modern medicine in the United States in 2009, and some of us need it and it does fill a gap that modern medicine has not completely filled.
I took offense to the title of the thread, that medical marijuana insults our intelligence. Just because most users are just trying to get high doesnt mean that some people are not legitimately benefiting from it in ways that other modern medicines have not been able to do.
And I am sorry you got food poisoning....but have you considered that maybe you would have stopped throwing up anyway? When you had food poisoning you had more going on than just nausea from medication and your body NEEDED to get rid of that crap. Why would you try to stop yourself from throwing up (at least in the beggining....too much leads to dehydration, and IV saline is vital in those instances)? Throwing up when you are poisoned is a GOOD thing for the most part, at least up to a point.
My guess is that nothing would have stopped you from throwing up in those early hours, including the drugs you got later on. By the time you got to the hospital and got the IVs you were probably past the worst of it and I am sure the meds they gave you really did help. However, that is an anecdotal report and does not contradict the pier reviewed scientific studies that showed that marijuana was more effective as an anti-emetic for a higher percentage of cancer patients undergoing chemo therapy, and that some patients who did not respond to first and second line anti-emetics did respond to marijuana....The study was not done on food poisoning though, it was done on cancer patients undergoing chemo, so maybe there is a difference.
Marijuana is legitimate medicine, its not the only whole herb used in modern medicine in the United States in 2009, and some of us need it and it does fill a gap that modern medicine has not completely filled.
It's all good friend snake oil isn't the best choice of phrase to describe what I would consider a reasonable opposition to pot shops for the sake of maintaining the legitimacy and image of medicinal and legalized marijuana. There are above board dispensaries and co-ops as well and people who grow and follow rules, and I think that's great. The whole article wasn't so good, like the gateway drug thing. I just can't stand pot shops and think too many recreational users who abuse "medical marijuana" see pot shops and that use of weed as a step towards legalization of weed as it may well set legalization back significantly, and slow or stop the spread of medical marijuana laws.
I got food poisoning from bad street food, pretty common in SE Asia. Usually marijuana worked for food poisoning, but a lot of the time it didn't. The few times it didn't I got violently ill and everything was out of me and I was dry heaving before I knew what hit me. I don't know if anything could help with that either. 2 hrs of that and trying to sleep and not throw up before I tried my own medicines a few times/ways and had a few unpleasant trips to the bathroom. Went to the hospital, within 30 mins I was there and got the shot for nausea (and a bag of saline). Good treatment, and cheap (like $30 all included no insurance in a fancy new hospital with docs educated in the west).
I could definitely see marijuana being better than other medicines with lots of gastrointestinal issues, and find it the easiest to use for relatively minor ones. I'm rather sceptical of any type of study that involves placebo due to what I've read regarding it, and some other personal observations.
I'm for marijuana for medicine and recreation. I just hope the two causes don't interfere with each other, and the pot shops I've seen, and their websites, really scare me.
snake oil isn't the best choice of phrase to describe what I would consider a reasonable opposition to pot shops for the sake of maintaining the legitimacy and image of medicinal and legalized marijuana. There are above board dispensaries and co-ops as well and people who grow and follow rules, and I think that's great. The whole article wasn't so good, like the gateway drug thing. I just can't stand pot shops and think too many recreational users who abuse "medical marijuana" see pot shops and that use of weed as a step towards legalization of weed as it may well set legalization back significantly, and slow or stop the spread of medical marijuana laws.I got food poisoning from bad street food, pretty common in SE Asia. Usually marijuana worked for food poisoning, but a lot of the time it didn't. The few times it didn't I got violently ill and everything was out of me and I was dry heaving before I knew what hit me. I don't know if anything could help with that either. 2 hrs of that and trying to sleep and not throw up before I tried my own medicines a few times/ways and had a few unpleasant trips to the bathroom. Went to the hospital, within 30 mins I was there and got the shot for nausea (and a bag of saline). Good treatment, and cheap (like $30 all included no insurance in a fancy new hospital with docs educated in the west).
I could definitely see marijuana being better than other medicines with lots of gastrointestinal issues, and find it the easiest to use for relatively minor ones. I'm rather sceptical of any type of study that involves placebo due to what I've read regarding it, and some other personal observations.
I'm for marijuana for medicine and recreation. I just hope the two causes don't interfere with each other, and the pot shops I've seen, and their websites, really scare me.
I agree with alot of what the author of the article states.
I never liked the sense of make believe, the hypocracy of the whole thing. As a medication, there is much evidence out there anecdotal and peer reviewed. If any kind of medical preparations made from cannabis required FDA approval, maybe levelheaded beaurocrats could make a provision for fast tracking this medicine. Its not some new powder or monoclonal antibody that has limited human experience. Somehow efficiency, levelheadedness, pragmatism, and timelyness do not seem to be characteristics the FDA or other beurocracy possesses in ubaundance.
But that is not what I wan't to discuss- the efficacy of cannabis or utility of cannabis as a medication. I belive that cannabis should be legal, but not for the purpose that it is safer than other drugs or has useful medical applications. All drugs should be legal, in my opinion, in that prohibition is an affront to personal liberty and the war on drugs has caused a human rights catastrophe through the suffering of untold millions and violations of basic human rights and concepts that civilized nations should adhere to. What ever evil drugs cause- and even with medications, there are always risks- the evil caused by the war on drugs is far worse.
Having said all that, yes i support medical MJ. It is a step in the right direction. What bugs me as a Californian is that it was promoted by appealing to the bleading heart sensibilities of our states "compasionate" residents to make it palatable. As opposed to legalizing cannabis outright because drug prohibition goes against core American values and principles. The war on drugs, though it may not be historically, is fundamentally UnAmerican, a crime of high treason against the America that should be. "For ourselves and our posterity..."
I know how spun I probably sound- fear my arguments getting off track and incoherent. This post sucks but hopefully I'm getting my point across.
So
Legalize weed because its the right thing to do. Then people who find it to be therapeutic, like those who feel better after 2 glasses of wine or have better cardiac outcomes, can take it on their Drs recommendation, hopefully not at overinflated prices from "caregivers". Those who just want to use it recreationally can use it anyway, just like they should have the right with every other drug. Juvenile and hypocritical it is- this medical MJ charade. But hey, its progress, and it undermines the war on drugs, so thats a good thing. And moving to the creation of an outdoor grow infrustructure, hopefully with based on an appelation AVA model- as unlibertarian a concept that is I think it would be a cool thing.%)
I never liked the sense of make believe, the hypocracy of the whole thing. As a medication, there is much evidence out there anecdotal and peer reviewed. If any kind of medical preparations made from cannabis required FDA approval, maybe levelheaded beaurocrats could make a provision for fast tracking this medicine. Its not some new powder or monoclonal antibody that has limited human experience. Somehow efficiency, levelheadedness, pragmatism, and timelyness do not seem to be characteristics the FDA or other beurocracy possesses in ubaundance.
But that is not what I wan't to discuss- the efficacy of cannabis or utility of cannabis as a medication. I belive that cannabis should be legal, but not for the purpose that it is safer than other drugs or has useful medical applications. All drugs should be legal, in my opinion, in that prohibition is an affront to personal liberty and the war on drugs has caused a human rights catastrophe through the suffering of untold millions and violations of basic human rights and concepts that civilized nations should adhere to. What ever evil drugs cause- and even with medications, there are always risks- the evil caused by the war on drugs is far worse.
Having said all that, yes i support medical MJ. It is a step in the right direction. What bugs me as a Californian is that it was promoted by appealing to the bleading heart sensibilities of our states "compasionate" residents to make it palatable. As opposed to legalizing cannabis outright because drug prohibition goes against core American values and principles. The war on drugs, though it may not be historically, is fundamentally UnAmerican, a crime of high treason against the America that should be. "For ourselves and our posterity..."
I know how spun I probably sound- fear my arguments getting off track and incoherent. This post sucks but hopefully I'm getting my point across.
So
Legalize weed because its the right thing to do. Then people who find it to be therapeutic, like those who feel better after 2 glasses of wine or have better cardiac outcomes, can take it on their Drs recommendation, hopefully not at overinflated prices from "caregivers". Those who just want to use it recreationally can use it anyway, just like they should have the right with every other drug. Juvenile and hypocritical it is- this medical MJ charade. But hey, its progress, and it undermines the war on drugs, so thats a good thing. And moving to the creation of an outdoor grow infrustructure, hopefully with based on an appelation AVA model- as unlibertarian a concept that is I think it would be a cool thing.%)
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Sentience
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That made perfect sense.
I think both arguments can exist parallel to each other though. I think its debatable as to whether medical marijuana strengthens or weakens the case for legalization...on one hand it makes it a prescription medication and that might be an obstacle to total legalization in some ways....but in other ways it desensitizes people to the stigma of marijuana. Instead of thinking of back ally crack deals they think of sick people and hippies...and its comparably less shocking now that its being discussed more...that and it is an easy loophole to smoking legally, even if its not for the right reasons for most* people.
I think the first step is getting is reclassified. A drug only belongs in schedule 1 if it has no established medical value. Medical marijuana could help push it down to schedule 2 or maybe schedule 3 which would be awesome because then Nurse Practitioners could also prescribe it.
Unfortunately I dont think total legalization will be on the table until after the baby boombers start dying off.
I think both arguments can exist parallel to each other though. I think its debatable as to whether medical marijuana strengthens or weakens the case for legalization...on one hand it makes it a prescription medication and that might be an obstacle to total legalization in some ways....but in other ways it desensitizes people to the stigma of marijuana. Instead of thinking of back ally crack deals they think of sick people and hippies...and its comparably less shocking now that its being discussed more...that and it is an easy loophole to smoking legally, even if its not for the right reasons for most* people.
I think the first step is getting is reclassified. A drug only belongs in schedule 1 if it has no established medical value. Medical marijuana could help push it down to schedule 2 or maybe schedule 3 which would be awesome because then Nurse Practitioners could also prescribe it.
Unfortunately I dont think total legalization will be on the table until after the baby boombers start dying off.
Huaca
Greenlighter
? The hippies of the 60s were from the baby boomer generation.
Sentience
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2009
- Messages
- 2,203
I hope that didnt come off as me being a hater. There are some really awesome people who grew up in the 50s who were part of the beat generation that came before the hippies. There are awesome people from every era. I just think that there is currently less acceptance of marijuana among people who grew up in the 50s vs those who were in highschool and college from the late 60s to present. Im talking averages, not trying to say that you cant be from that generation and cooler than most of the young people around today.
phr
Bluelighter
Huh? I was talking about garuda's post.
atruestory
Bluelighter
There is another article by this guy called "medical marijuana is a trojan horse" or something... can't link to it on my phone very easily but this guy makes my blood boil... he needs to go suck the FDAs dick a little more
I fully support 215 or whatever the medical cannabis act is. But the make believe bullshit bothers me. I can't think of a better analogy= had a hard day at work- this is going to be more tedious and honerous probably even than my last post., but I hate parking tickets for street sweeping. They sweep some roads were I live once a month and others once a week and switch sides and make it confusing and schedule the street sweeping often during times that are inopportune for the residents. the street sweeper goes around the cars- is useless, they do there job first thing and then continue to ticket. In other words, they schedule the prohibition for like five hours. It takes 10 minutes to go down one side of the street. The point is, this is a bullshit method for the city to make money. 1st and third wed of the month between 7-10 am and the other side of the street the last. monday of the month from 1:00 to 5:00 am . Hate the hypocracy, why waste money on the street sweepers. And in debates on the topic, say the truth- the city needs money so we are making it illegal to park on this side of the street because statitically speaking there are always people there that are going to forget the signs, so we have a secure stream of funding. Maybe they are tourists from out of town. Aint nothing wrong with alittle "no taxation without repressentation if it achieves the greater good.". Today in the breakroom, the TV was tuned to CNN and MSNBC and there was a debate that constitutional protection of privacy has been eroded, yet, public officials should, not even be held to the same standards but are given greater immunity and more latitude over public oversight- even, the guys seemed to intimate, that personal details of these public. elected officials are given some sort of protection status.. I don't know the specific issue but i caught a snip-something about private sessions of the senate or communications of senators. National security is a legitimate excuse but one that must be used sparingly and judiciously. Democaratic governments derive their legitimacy from the people. This requires transparency, truth, sensible informed debate, and above all, the decision to live, legislate, rule, and administar by principle, not allowing morality to become the central rationale to prohibit something the some not like, or become offended by for whatever reason. Rights are inalieanble- they are a law of nature like gravity, not priveledges to be given to citizens for being good little boys and girls. Another example- I was talking to my boss about the on campus somking policy, which it in place. Her response was, "I hate smokers, why make it easy for them (to utilize a policy that is in place). this kind of thinking- legislating morality, forcing people to act according to our personal standards even if they don't infringe on other peoples rights- because it makes them feel superior to force other to adopt their lifestyles or prejudices. Believing that its the governments job to save ther world or atleast our vision of it. This is not Freedom. This is facscism, and interestingly enough, don't know German but Nazism stands for national socialism or something like that. As far fetched as it sounds, when we try to use the government to remake our neighbors and fellow citizens in our own image or our utopian image of the way they should look, act, think, care for there selves then then we are acting in a manner consitent with facism. When you have faith in your fellow people, in the ingenuity, resillence, and capacity for self relliance of Americans as a whole, in other words, you treat you countrymen like adults, then you have democracy, you have freedom- and this country still belongs to us. The government derives it powers from the people. Its our duty to protect the country from the government- We do this individually, in small groups, discussions here and there, by keeping bullshit to a minimum. Borrowing from the Movie JFK- "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it. Well by that reasoning, the bigger the government, the greater the number of potential liars, the more people that will drown in bullshit. To clarify what i mentioned with the wine. I dr. might tell her patient that a glass or two of red wine can reduce their risk of heart disease- they make a recomendation to the patient. The patient if they decide, aren't in recovery, don't dislike red wine, and agree with their dr will go by wine from the store and drink according to the drs guidlines, if they choose to comply with that recomendation. If cannabis was legal outright, a dr could make a recomendation in a similar way and it would be up to the job of the patient to use it occording to the recomendations rather than going to a pharmacist, consults, "smoke 1 joint q 8 hrs prn..." All probaly lost me but if you leave with nothing else here is an important point, more political opinion on my part.
I believe that stuff should be legal unless it inteferes with someone elses life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The federal government does have some resposibility to protect us from enemies, foreign and domestic. Using drugs abusively mostly harms the user but are not without collateral damage- by this standard DOAs should be legal. However, the indiscriminate prescription of antibiotics and the non compliace in the use of these and other antimicrobial medications have resulted in great harm- much more harm in my opinion than all drugs of abuse combined including cafeine )(misused by cardiac patients.) This has lead to the antibiotic resistance problems, resistant forms of TB, drug resistant bacteria like VRE and MRSA and all kinds of the crazy shit. People die from pna and sepsis and all kinds of other shit or blow out their kidneys with vanco trying to fight MRSA b/c Tx options are limited. A better case, in terms of protecting the public at large could be made regulating erythromycin, for instance, than methadone. If you let MMT patients with no takehome priveledges switch places with a person on say a z-pak even if you gave them 3 months takehomes, while making the antibiotic pts comming in to the clinic every day and having there antibiotics swallowed under supervision, given one dose at a time (accept after long term antimicrobial treatment is needed and take home rights are given- that would make more sense- when your talking about reducing a clear and present danger to the American public and health care system-already teatering on colapse
Would this be accepted by American people- of course not, "this is America not Nazi Germany for fucks sake" When you are being inconvenienced, even though the potential public health care benefit is greater, and there is a logicak retional- logic and principle go out the window. Actually, I think that there is a system in place, atleast in CA that does have monitored daily administrations of TB drygs because drug resistance has become such a serious health threat.
I believe that stuff should be legal unless it inteferes with someone elses life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The federal government does have some resposibility to protect us from enemies, foreign and domestic. Using drugs abusively mostly harms the user but are not without collateral damage- by this standard DOAs should be legal. However, the indiscriminate prescription of antibiotics and the non compliace in the use of these and other antimicrobial medications have resulted in great harm- much more harm in my opinion than all drugs of abuse combined including cafeine )(misused by cardiac patients.) This has lead to the antibiotic resistance problems, resistant forms of TB, drug resistant bacteria like VRE and MRSA and all kinds of the crazy shit. People die from pna and sepsis and all kinds of other shit or blow out their kidneys with vanco trying to fight MRSA b/c Tx options are limited. A better case, in terms of protecting the public at large could be made regulating erythromycin, for instance, than methadone. If you let MMT patients with no takehome priveledges switch places with a person on say a z-pak even if you gave them 3 months takehomes, while making the antibiotic pts comming in to the clinic every day and having there antibiotics swallowed under supervision, given one dose at a time (accept after long term antimicrobial treatment is needed and take home rights are given- that would make more sense- when your talking about reducing a clear and present danger to the American public and health care system-already teatering on colapse
Would this be accepted by American people- of course not, "this is America not Nazi Germany for fucks sake" When you are being inconvenienced, even though the potential public health care benefit is greater, and there is a logicak retional- logic and principle go out the window. Actually, I think that there is a system in place, atleast in CA that does have monitored daily administrations of TB drygs because drug resistance has become such a serious health threat.
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