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Mechanism of augmentation of HPPD/Psychedelia by d-amphetamine?

hppd's visual distortions are caused by physiological changes in the inhibitory system.

Dissassociation caused by HPPD could be psychological, and it also could have physiological mechanisms at work as well. We dont know yet.
 
ShaolinBomber said:
hppd's visual distortions are caused by physiological changes in the inhibitory system.
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quite likely, anything dealing with visual perception has many physiological components, but what triggers the onset is almost certainly psychological. The mechanism is always there, but most HPPD reports tend to center around specific events as opposed to constant visual distortion. Especially this thread regarding either d-amph or pot+d-amph, and I'm sure we've all heard many anecdotes about pot alone triggering these type of occurances. I'd venture a guess that its somethink akin to both state specific memory and PTSD. The mechanisms for these have been studied but aren't completely understood, by a long shot.

Dissassociation caused by HPPD could be psychological, and it also could have physiological mechanisms at work as well. We dont know yet.
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Whether the dissociation is caused by a physiological mechanism, or the dissociation causes a physiological response in the brain is a coin toss, a chicken or egg sort of question... Both are quite possibly true
 
any major dude said:
quite likely, anything dealing with visual perception has many physiological components, but what triggers the onset is almost certainly psychological. The mechanism is always there, but most HPPD reports tend to center around specific events as opposed to constant visual distortion. Especially this thread regarding either d-amph or pot+d-amph, and I'm sure we've all heard many anecdotes about pot alone triggering these type of occurances. I'd venture a guess that its somethink akin to both state specific memory and PTSD. The mechanisms for these have been studied but aren't completely understood, by a long shot.



Whether the dissociation is caused by a physiological mechanism, or the dissociation causes a physiological response in the brain is a coin toss, a chicken or egg sort of question... Both are quite possibly true
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sorry but i will have to strongly disagree here. I have no control over what i see, how intense it is, when i see it, etc. There is no psychological component controlling whether or not i see 4 different floaters in my vision, or a starburst, or anything else.
 
ShaolinBomber said:
sorry but i will have to strongly disagree here. I have no control over what i see, how intense it is, when i see it, etc. There is no psychological component controlling whether or not i see 4 different floaters in my vision, or a starburst, or anything else.
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Again, just because there is a psychological component to this disorder doesn't delegitimize it at all. Whether or not you have control over something like this has nothing to do with whether its physiological or psychological. Few people can control the brief moment of fear & sphincter clenching when they see a police car in their rear view mirror and that's entirely psychological, almost everyone can control their breathing or eye focus to a certain extent, which are both physiological. At any rate I'm certainly not saying its entirely psychological. I just think, and there is pretty good evidence for, that HPPD, much like PTSD, starts as a psychological phenomenon which, when it occurs often enough, leads to changes in neuroendocrinology & neuroanatomy, just like any form of learning.

Take PTSD for example, and forgive my brevity. It starts with a strong psychological imprint, in this case fear. This can cause NE/cortisol levels to get out of balance and negative feedback inhibition of cortisol can cause (or may be caused by, who knows?) irregularities in the Hypothalmic Pituitary Adrenal axis, then by proxy the hippocampus and amydgala. The latter is involved with highly emotional memories. Once all these things have occurred, any number of stimuli associated with those painful memories can trigger an acute incident. So what you basically end up with is a dysfunctional learning pathway associating feelings of dissociation & fear with any number of stimuli that are or have come to be associated with the initial trauma.

I don't think its that much of a logical leap to assume a similar malfunction can occur with any type of intense psychological imprint, like one from an intense (positive or negative) psychedelic experience. Obviously the visual component is more pronounced in HPPD, but many PTSD sufferers also have hallucinations or visual irregularities. All this being said, when one starts to enter an altered state through something like d-amph, pot, or both, these feelings of "alteredness" can trigger the dysfunctional learning pathway that has formed as a result of the initial psychological imprint.

And lastly, I could be wrong on this, but floaters, if what you're refering to is the same thing i'm thinking of, are just bits of more gelatenous vitrious floating across the retina and casting a shadow... shouldn't be a result of drug use. I think everyone has those
 
any major dude said:
Again, just because there is a psychological component to this disorder doesn't delegitimize it at all. Whether or not you have control over something like this has nothing to do with whether its physiological or psychological. Few people can control the brief moment of fear & sphincter clenching when they see a police car in their rear view mirror and that's entirely psychological, almost everyone can control their breathing or eye focus to a certain extent, which are both physiological. At any rate I'm certainly not saying its entirely psychological. I just think, and there is pretty good evidence for, that HPPD, much like PTSD, starts as a psychological phenomenon which, when it occurs often enough, leads to changes in neuroendocrinology & neuroanatomy, just like any form of learning.

Take PTSD for example, and forgive my brevity. It starts with a strong psychological imprint, in this case fear. This can cause NE/cortisol levels to get out of balance and negative feedback inhibition of cortisol can cause (or may be caused by, who knows?) irregularities in the Hypothalmic Pituitary Adrenal axis, then by proxy the hippocampus and amydgala. The latter is involved with highly emotional memories. Once all these things have occurred, any number of stimuli associated with those painful memories can trigger an acute incident. So what you basically end up with is a dysfunctional learning pathway associating feelings of dissociation & fear with any number of stimuli that are or have come to be associated with the initial trauma.

I don't think its that much of a logical leap to assume a similar malfunction can occur with any type of intense psychological imprint, like one from an intense (positive or negative) psychedelic experience. Obviously the visual component is more pronounced in HPPD, but many PTSD sufferers also have hallucinations or visual irregularities. All this being said, when one starts to enter an altered state through something like d-amph, pot, or both, these feelings of "alteredness" can trigger the dysfunctional learning pathway that has formed as a result of the initial psychological imprint.

And lastly, I could be wrong on this, but floaters, if what you're refering to is the same thing i'm thinking of, are just bits of more gelatenous vitrious floating across the retina and casting a shadow... shouldn't be a result of drug use. I think everyone has those
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I've talked to the leading researcher assistant at Harvard for HPPD. They work in psychedelic labs, and study these drugs in lab settings and are putting out clinical studies and trials about it. HPPD is a nuerobiological disorder, not purely psychological.

Yes floaters are a normal phenom. I've had one ever since i can remember, but ever since HPPD, i see about 3-4 different kinds of floaters that cover my field of vision against a light surface background unless im on medication.

HPPD is not a psychological problem like PTSD. It arises from phsyiological changes made to inhibitory systems in the brain. Thats why the research Dr. Abraham has done as shown the abnormal excitation in brain scans of an hppd patient.

And btw, i did not get HPPD from psychedelics, i got mine from pure MDMA powder.
 
sounds like i need to get over to pubmed... I've gotten a bit lax in my reading there of late. Sounds like some interesting stuff. But like Roger&Me pointed out, psychology & physiology are inextricably linked. So my next question would be are the inhibitory changes more likely caused directly by the affects of acute drug intoxication? Or are they similar to the maladaptive feedback loop & learning pathway as in PTSD?

Thats also interesting your HPPD was caused by MDMA, and those are some extreme floaters, perhaps all the nystagmus jiggled something loose... Was it after a single dose, or extended use?
 
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any major dude said:
sounds like i need to get over to pubmed... I've gotten a bit lax in my reading there of late. Sounds like some interesting stuff. But like Roger&Me pointed out, psychology & physiology are inextricably linked. So my next question would be are the inhibitory changes more likely caused directly by the affects of acute drug intoxication? Or are they similar to the maladaptive feedback look & learning pathway as in PTSD?

Thats also interesting your HPPD was caused by MDMA, and those are some extreme floaters, perhaps all the nystagmus jiggled something loose... Was it after a single dose, or extended use?
Click to expand...

The leading consensus as of right now is that epigenetic changes are made to the inhibitory system between the serotonergic and the GABAergic negative feedback loop.
 
After reading up on some of the stuff you mentioned I had an interesting thought: I bet SSRI's could either cause or aggravate this disorder. It appears SSRI's can cause quite severe reactions in people with HPPD. Given the ease with which doctors hand those things out these days, this could cause a lot of people serious problems. In fact, a number of the side effects in the patient information are also symptoms of HPPD. Hopefully more and more psychiatrists & doctors are becoming educated on this subject.

Also, I've taken a fair amount of what could be considered potential HPPD causing drugs, 2c-e ~15x, 2c-i ~12x, 2c-d 25-30x, 2ct2 twice, mescaline twice, several 4-sub trypts 7-10x each, and more LSD, MDMA, mushrooms, & DMT than I can quantify. Yet I don't have HPPD, I don't ever recall having visual distortions without drugs. If I smoke enough pot I can have some visual disturbances, usually just grainy-ness & small starburst patterns around lights. Similar things can be cause by amphetamines, not just dextro, but its certainly included. I'm positive the former occurred well before I delved into psychedelia, but I'm uncertain about the latter. I was also on SSRI's for a few years and quit taking them at the beginning of this year and the frequency of visual disturbances caused by the afforementioned has lessened noticeably now that I've been off SSRI's for over 9 months.

Anyone here have experiences with SSRI's causing or augmenting HPPD?
 
any major dude said:
After reading up on some of the stuff you mentioned I had an interesting thought: I bet SSRI's could either cause or aggravate this disorder. It appears SSRI's can cause quite severe reactions in people with HPPD. Given the ease with which doctors hand those things out these days, this could cause a lot of people serious problems. In fact, a number of the side effects in the patient information are also symptoms of HPPD. Hopefully more and more psychiatrists & doctors are becoming educated on this subject.
Also, I've taken a fair amount of what could be considered potential HPPD causing drugs, 2c-e ~15x, 2c-i ~12x, 2c-d 25-30x, 2ct2 twice, mescaline twice, several 4-sub trypts 7-10x each, and more LSD, MDMA, mushrooms, & DMT than I can quantify. Yet I don't have HPPD, I don't ever recall having visual distortions without drugs. If I smoke enough pot I can have some visual disturbances, usually just grainy-ness & small starburst patterns around lights. Similar things can be cause by amphetamines, not just dextro, but its certainly included. I'm positive the former occurred well before I delved into psychedelia, but I'm uncertain about the latter. I was also on SSRI's for a few years and quit taking them at the beginning of this year and the frequency of visual disturbances caused by the afforementioned has lessened noticeably now that I've been off SSRI's for over 9 months.

Anyone here have experiences with SSRI's causing or augmenting HPPD?
Click to expand...

It's more than likely because SSRI's interact with all 5-ht receptor sites, and that includes the 5-ht2 subtype which has populations located upon GABAergic inhibitory cells.
 
Shaolin Bomber said:
They work in psychedelic labs
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For real, like with day-glo walls, strobes, blacklights, HUGE stereos, incense, pictures of elves/ganesha/gnomes? That sounds awesome ;) :D
 
swilow said:
For real, like with day-glo walls, strobes, blacklights, HUGE stereos, incense, pictures of elves/ganesha/gnomes? That sounds awesome ;) :D
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ya dude its like alice in wonderland with johnny depp. Best job in the world.
 
any major dude said:
Anyone here have experiences with SSRI's causing or augmenting HPPD?
Click to expand...

There are very infrequent reports of it causing HPPD. I don't think it is widespread. If you look on HPPDonline you will see occasional mentions of this.

Augmenting HPPD is one of two things; some drugs might make HPPD permanently worse, (like LSD), temporarily worse for a month or so, or just while their effects last. I took SSRIs and SNRIs while I had severe HPPD and actually improved, but that was because there is a "baseline" HPPD symptom level easier to reach when not stressed (due to the anxiolytic effect of SSRIs).

Some will disagree, but I haven't noticed a direct effect on visuals levels by SSRIs, even though there is a neurochemical reason for it to happen.
 
qhqhzn said:
There are very infrequent reports of it causing HPPD. I don't think it is widespread. If you look on HPPDonline you will see occasional mentions of this.

Augmenting HPPD is one of two things; some drugs might make HPPD permanently worse, (like LSD), temporarily worse for a month or so, or just while their effects last. I took SSRIs and SNRIs while I had severe HPPD and actually improved, but that was because there is a "baseline" HPPD symptom level easier to reach when not stressed (due to the anxiolytic effect of SSRIs).

Some will disagree, but I haven't noticed a direct effect on visuals levels by SSRIs, even though there is a neurochemical reason for it to happen.
Click to expand...

One thing to keep in mind wit people that have SSRI induced visual disturbances is because its possible these people have a background history for drug use but dont admit it. I mean drugs WILL leave your neurons used up, but most people seem to be able to deflect chemical influences on them instead of your brain(or RNA,DNA coding, epigenetics, too complicated to go into) having to think that the drug essentially programmed your brain to remove parts as a "defense mechanism."
 
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