fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
^ Instant porn star! 
-
N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet
MDPV - So how dangerous is it?
- Thread starter offwhite
- Start date
MurphyClox
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,416
Hilarious!
I'd agree on the idea that cardiac illnesses are more worrying than actual neuron damage in this case. I've had tachycardia aswell as the panic attacks on MDPV more than once..
the dose-response curve is VERY steep when you go above 10mg nasally IMO.
the dose-response curve is VERY steep when you go above 10mg nasally IMO.
Jimity
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2003
- Messages
- 3,135
dread
Bluelighter
I concur
"Although, around here MDPV has already caused several deaths due to idiots selling it as a speed/meth substitute (or even in some cases, simply selling it as speed) and unfortunate and/or ignorant people not knowing the correct dosage and overdosing accordingly... "
?
How much did they take to cause an overdose? Was it that their hearts failed that actually killed them?
"after some years of experimentation with this substance, including intermittent longterm periods (2-4 months) of dosing upwards of 800 mg/d, i consider MDPV to be the most physically benign stimulant - and the same time, as the most psychologically addictive psychopharmacological agent i know. and i know a rather few by the first name."
I previously considered my habit to be going for a world record in mdpv consumption. Some days I was doing more than a gram but also having days off. I averaged my intake at 0.75g a day. I have had to cut down to 0.25g a day now because of chest pains. I smoke it in a bong. I can't imagine anyone using the sort of amounts we are talking about without smoking it because there's a necessity to burn off a lot of the potency in order to survive those quantities.
I was having a smoke with my boyfriend and he was keeping up with me. The same day he had a heart attack. Fortunately he's still alive but the hospital told him that heart problems associated with mdpv are common because the drug acts upon the top ventricles of the heart causing them to tighten. That makes the heart have to work harder to beat. At the same time it is being stimulated to go faster. The result is increased pressure on the heart which can be dangerous for some people.
"I think it is dangerous in that it is VERY addictive... moreso than anything else I know of. People who have managed to run the gauntlet of every other drug and not get addicted are having real difficulty with this stuff... and for very little benefit it seems to me."
I am going to quit at the end of my stash, which used to be enormous because when I got it I was determined that I had it chronic for mdpv. To do that I have needed to leave it at friends houses so that I can't hoon it compulsively on my own overnight. I have an allowance of 0.25g a day which I have asked others to help me enforce on myself.
"fuck is it addictive. I lost my meth habit for peevee "
I find it more addictive than heroine and mephedrone. Never tried meth so don't know.
"I'd say it was considerably less addictive than mephedrone"
mephedrone is in fashion now so it is more commonly used. I used to think it was my strongest addiction (before I'd tried mdpv) but after indulging myself until satiety regularly, I have found less of a compulsion to use it. I'm disillusioned with it actually. It's not as great as I thought it was. It's just another party drug. Sometimes I use it socially but am inclined to turn it down unless to do so would be unfashionable.
mdpv is the most addictive thing in existence and it tires out your heart.
?
How much did they take to cause an overdose? Was it that their hearts failed that actually killed them?
"after some years of experimentation with this substance, including intermittent longterm periods (2-4 months) of dosing upwards of 800 mg/d, i consider MDPV to be the most physically benign stimulant - and the same time, as the most psychologically addictive psychopharmacological agent i know. and i know a rather few by the first name."
I previously considered my habit to be going for a world record in mdpv consumption. Some days I was doing more than a gram but also having days off. I averaged my intake at 0.75g a day. I have had to cut down to 0.25g a day now because of chest pains. I smoke it in a bong. I can't imagine anyone using the sort of amounts we are talking about without smoking it because there's a necessity to burn off a lot of the potency in order to survive those quantities.
I was having a smoke with my boyfriend and he was keeping up with me. The same day he had a heart attack. Fortunately he's still alive but the hospital told him that heart problems associated with mdpv are common because the drug acts upon the top ventricles of the heart causing them to tighten. That makes the heart have to work harder to beat. At the same time it is being stimulated to go faster. The result is increased pressure on the heart which can be dangerous for some people.
"I think it is dangerous in that it is VERY addictive... moreso than anything else I know of. People who have managed to run the gauntlet of every other drug and not get addicted are having real difficulty with this stuff... and for very little benefit it seems to me."
I am going to quit at the end of my stash, which used to be enormous because when I got it I was determined that I had it chronic for mdpv. To do that I have needed to leave it at friends houses so that I can't hoon it compulsively on my own overnight. I have an allowance of 0.25g a day which I have asked others to help me enforce on myself.
"fuck is it addictive. I lost my meth habit for peevee "
I find it more addictive than heroine and mephedrone. Never tried meth so don't know.
"I'd say it was considerably less addictive than mephedrone"
mephedrone is in fashion now so it is more commonly used. I used to think it was my strongest addiction (before I'd tried mdpv) but after indulging myself until satiety regularly, I have found less of a compulsion to use it. I'm disillusioned with it actually. It's not as great as I thought it was. It's just another party drug. Sometimes I use it socially but am inclined to turn it down unless to do so would be unfashionable.
mdpv is the most addictive thing in existence and it tires out your heart.
Hmm did they say that it's *particularly* common with MDPV? Or did they just inform him about stimulants in general?
nuke
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2004
- Messages
- 4,191
I can't believe anyone finds this incredibly addictive. Well, I mean, actually I guess I can, since I don't see addictive potential in pretty much all stimulants.
It does raise my pulse about 20-25BPM resting, on average.
I also can't even think about sex while on it. But it can be all I think about off stimulants! Strangeness.
It does raise my pulse about 20-25BPM resting, on average.
I also can't even think about sex while on it. But it can be all I think about off stimulants! Strangeness.
@nuke: I would say that it doesn't put you into a great mood (I tend to have a pretty serious facial expression while on it, at times). It doesn't seem to make me sociable in the way amphetamine does.
It just has this subtle, clear, cold pleasurable feeling to it for roughly 30 minutes after nasal administration, and you want to experience this peculiar feeling again and again even though you know it's just playing games with your reward systems... I feel somewhere between naughty and guilty before myself, for giving in again and again. I just hope I won't be *permanently* craving for it
Edit: Btw, anything known about its kinetics? (Half-life? Does it depend on body pH like with amphetamine?)
It just has this subtle, clear, cold pleasurable feeling to it for roughly 30 minutes after nasal administration, and you want to experience this peculiar feeling again and again even though you know it's just playing games with your reward systems... I feel somewhere between naughty and guilty before myself, for giving in again and again. I just hope I won't be *permanently* craving for it
Edit: Btw, anything known about its kinetics? (Half-life? Does it depend on body pH like with amphetamine?)
Last edited:
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
Most hospital staff don't even know what MDPV is, so the above sounds like bollocks by somebody (doctors as a rule know very little about pharmacology). Ventricles are the lower chamber of the heart so that's wrong as well...
Also, causing deaths? Can we have detasils with backing evidence as I've not heard of any MDPV related deaths (& my ex works for the poisons info unit)
Dr Triangle
Greenlighter
Some really interesting (and conflicting) experiences on here. I acquired a 500 mg bag of MDPV about 4 weeks ago and I have, every now and again, slowly been "sipping" at it, much like a nice single malt.
Here's how it plays out for me....
Initial dose, ~10 mg insufflated. I usually feel an immediate increase in resting heart rate and a clear headedness after about 5 mins. No "real" euphoria sets in, however, I do feel strangely at ease with myself and I do become more sociable. This tends to last for about 2 hours (it has a fairly quick climb and plateaus out for a nice "extended" peak).
In my opinion, the come down is slow and is by no means a "crash". I admit I do feel a little bit jittery, but then again, luckily I am someone with no anxiety issues at all. The best way to get by this is just to recognize whats happening and see yourself through back to baseline.
I am an avid fan of 4-MMC and M1 (mephedrone/methylone), but I only indulge during club nights or special occasions. However, I did recognize the useful potential of these RC amphetamines at work. So, to cut to the chase, I have on a couple of occasions had a cheeky semi-low dose of mephedrone at work (~175 mg) and i have to say that I really found it quite a pleasurable experience and managed to get through piles of work. However, the peak is really quite short in this respect, and so introduces the problems of wanting to re-dose at work (not a good idea, because all you end up dong is talking shit with people who you never really talk to at work and end up freaking them out). Anyway, I digress, I then identified the potential of MDPV of being a possible source of stimulation in the work place on the occasions (and I stress occasions) that you have a lot on/deadlines to meet/ or just have that Friday feeling.
As for toxicity....I will level with you...I am a scientist (Biochemist, PhD) and although I am not fully educated in pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics, I think that MDPV does not metabolize into any cardiotoxic compound. Pyrovalerone itself is a Schedule V controlled substance in the U.S., and is the only stimulant in that category, therefore on that basis, "probably" there is nothing too much to worry about.
I would expect it to be metabolized into the 3,4-dihydro then 4-hydroxy, 3-methoxy-ring substituted derivative by the CYP2D6 de-methylation O-methylation pathway, in much the same way as MDMA or methylone does. The cytochromes found in the liver and blood plasma are fairly promiscuous, in as much as they recognize only certain moieties on compounds for further catalysis. The important thing for MDPV, and this is just my opinion, is that although it is obviously a beta-ketone, the Pyrovalerone group on the molecules makes MDPV really quite hydrophobic. This probably means that MDPV will associate with lipids bi-layers in the membrane for longer periods on time. Since no one has ever solved the structure of an SSR + an inhibitor (such as MDMA), then we dont have any clue as to the direct mechanism of action or where amphetamines bind within these receptors. Are the any hydrophobic pockets for this molecule to "sit in" much like a lock and key. Or are the unique effects of MDPV due to its hydrophobicity index which will have a direct consequence on its half-life.
Anyway...enough science...I'm even starting to bore myself. I have no issue with wanting to re-dose and I dont feel that this is a fiendish drug (for me, mephedrone and methylone are way more problematic in this respect). I do believe that correct doing is essential for MDPV. Like any drug, start small and move up, but dont be too hasty with this one...otherwise it will leave you with a very sleepless night and you will more than likely feel a little more on edge. Everyone is different in terms of tolerance/addictive potential/metabolizm etc...so I am not going to judge...but for me...it really is a mind over matter type of problem here.
To finish...just a little anecdote of stims and commuting!
I cycle to work (12 miles in one direction) an it can get a little boring at times. I once tried 250 mg of mephedrone and had the best cycle home from work ever (plugged in some of my favorite trance on my iPod and the journey went so fast I could have flown there). But...that make an expensive journey over a period of time. I tried MDPV (10 mg) no good really (probably due to the lack of euphoria). Yesterday...(10 mg MDPV insufflated then re-dosed 10 mg MDPV 2 hours later plus 2 caps of GBL ~ 0.7 mL)...very nice ride home...even in the poring rain...in fact...I could have probably done it again.
Stay safe...and I hope that this post helps (on a few levels).
Here's how it plays out for me....
Initial dose, ~10 mg insufflated. I usually feel an immediate increase in resting heart rate and a clear headedness after about 5 mins. No "real" euphoria sets in, however, I do feel strangely at ease with myself and I do become more sociable. This tends to last for about 2 hours (it has a fairly quick climb and plateaus out for a nice "extended" peak).
In my opinion, the come down is slow and is by no means a "crash". I admit I do feel a little bit jittery, but then again, luckily I am someone with no anxiety issues at all. The best way to get by this is just to recognize whats happening and see yourself through back to baseline.
I am an avid fan of 4-MMC and M1 (mephedrone/methylone), but I only indulge during club nights or special occasions. However, I did recognize the useful potential of these RC amphetamines at work. So, to cut to the chase, I have on a couple of occasions had a cheeky semi-low dose of mephedrone at work (~175 mg) and i have to say that I really found it quite a pleasurable experience and managed to get through piles of work. However, the peak is really quite short in this respect, and so introduces the problems of wanting to re-dose at work (not a good idea, because all you end up dong is talking shit with people who you never really talk to at work and end up freaking them out). Anyway, I digress, I then identified the potential of MDPV of being a possible source of stimulation in the work place on the occasions (and I stress occasions) that you have a lot on/deadlines to meet/ or just have that Friday feeling.
As for toxicity....I will level with you...I am a scientist (Biochemist, PhD) and although I am not fully educated in pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics, I think that MDPV does not metabolize into any cardiotoxic compound. Pyrovalerone itself is a Schedule V controlled substance in the U.S., and is the only stimulant in that category, therefore on that basis, "probably" there is nothing too much to worry about.
I would expect it to be metabolized into the 3,4-dihydro then 4-hydroxy, 3-methoxy-ring substituted derivative by the CYP2D6 de-methylation O-methylation pathway, in much the same way as MDMA or methylone does. The cytochromes found in the liver and blood plasma are fairly promiscuous, in as much as they recognize only certain moieties on compounds for further catalysis. The important thing for MDPV, and this is just my opinion, is that although it is obviously a beta-ketone, the Pyrovalerone group on the molecules makes MDPV really quite hydrophobic. This probably means that MDPV will associate with lipids bi-layers in the membrane for longer periods on time. Since no one has ever solved the structure of an SSR + an inhibitor (such as MDMA), then we dont have any clue as to the direct mechanism of action or where amphetamines bind within these receptors. Are the any hydrophobic pockets for this molecule to "sit in" much like a lock and key. Or are the unique effects of MDPV due to its hydrophobicity index which will have a direct consequence on its half-life.
Anyway...enough science...I'm even starting to bore myself. I have no issue with wanting to re-dose and I dont feel that this is a fiendish drug (for me, mephedrone and methylone are way more problematic in this respect). I do believe that correct doing is essential for MDPV. Like any drug, start small and move up, but dont be too hasty with this one...otherwise it will leave you with a very sleepless night and you will more than likely feel a little more on edge. Everyone is different in terms of tolerance/addictive potential/metabolizm etc...so I am not going to judge...but for me...it really is a mind over matter type of problem here.
To finish...just a little anecdote of stims and commuting!
I cycle to work (12 miles in one direction) an it can get a little boring at times. I once tried 250 mg of mephedrone and had the best cycle home from work ever (plugged in some of my favorite trance on my iPod and the journey went so fast I could have flown there). But...that make an expensive journey over a period of time. I tried MDPV (10 mg) no good really (probably due to the lack of euphoria). Yesterday...(10 mg MDPV insufflated then re-dosed 10 mg MDPV 2 hours later plus 2 caps of GBL ~ 0.7 mL)...very nice ride home...even in the poring rain...in fact...I could have probably done it again.
Stay safe...and I hope that this post helps (on a few levels).
nuke
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2004
- Messages
- 4,191
You have a PhD in biochemistry and you're abusing mephedrone?
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=3GWU
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=3GWV
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=3GWW
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=3F3A
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=3F3C
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=2Q6H
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=2Q72
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=2QB4
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=2QJU
There are a number of papers now about the modelling of human transporters based upon LeuT, and they're presumed to be fairly accurate.
Mm, no,
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=3GWU
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=3GWV
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=3GWW
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=3F3A
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=3F3C
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=2Q6H
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=2Q72
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=2QB4
http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=2QJU
There are a number of papers now about the modelling of human transporters based upon LeuT, and they're presumed to be fairly accurate.
Dr Triangle
Greenlighter
Thanks NUKE for the reply...I appreciate all responses. Whilst I agree that there are models of SSR based upon LeuT, that does not form a basis for structure --> function --> mechanism. I myself have had one or two scientific papers rejected due to me basing scientific assumptions on in silico docking experiments. There is nothing quite like having a the structure of a protein solved in complex with its cognate substrate...I don't really like to "presume". Furthermore, since these receptors are membrane bound...its is extremely difficult to crystalise them due to their hydrophobic nature and poor solubility...which means we might be waiting a while for a conclusive answer...any way...never mind...I almost sound like i'm lecturing...which brings me onto my next point...
I am not "abusing" mephedrone...I am making an educated and rational decision to use this substance at my own discretion. I had a couple of glasses of one of Scotland's finest Single Malts tonight, the alcohol content was really quite high...I would probably be in more agreement with someone suggesting I was abusing this instead..if i was to follow the governments recommendations based upon toxic/addiction index. Luckily...I listen to Professor David Nutt
I am not "abusing" mephedrone...I am making an educated and rational decision to use this substance at my own discretion. I had a couple of glasses of one of Scotland's finest Single Malts tonight, the alcohol content was really quite high...I would probably be in more agreement with someone suggesting I was abusing this instead..if i was to follow the governments recommendations based upon toxic/addiction index. Luckily...I listen to Professor David Nutt
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
Personally I'd say any use of 4-MMC is abuse after reading about it's amphetamine counterpart 4-methylamphetamine (nasty, nasty stuff)
Following some comments to the dangers, originating from the experiences i made the past ~3 weeks... i'll try to keep it short, as i realized that longer, structured posts maybe tend to be skipped during the reading process. If that's the case - no need for endeavor in vain. ;-)
Psychological dangers:
Definitely the addiction factor, as many others say. Although its a paradox, as lots of regular peevians consistently share the opinion that the effects themselves don't explain or excuse this absolutely obsessive redosing behavior increasing proportional to the time of peevee-availability. Even though i had a quite exhausting problem with i.v. cocaine (and heroine) abuse, it was still easier for me to control or stop a coke session than to stop smoking peevee. Even now, i still smoked... although i wanted to go to bed 2 or three hours before.
Sometimes i even forget my Buprenorphine (prescribed from doctor) until later in the day, which i _never_ did since i get it regularly.
So, in those regards i think peevee i very, very dangerous (to speak for me, of course).
Physical dangers:
No real facts i'm currently aware of. But i noticed that my lungs feel quite okay (not worser than before), but my hands and feet are cold all the time, which is probably due to vasoconstriction. I tried to fix that (or at least make it better) with Aspirin, which probably helped a bit, but it can also have been placebo. Not sure. But i only took one single tablet, containing 500mg.
Something else: did anyone else notice some green-to-grey, not-normal-looking poo? I'm not sure if it's peevee-related, maybe eating less and things like that also do their job...
Greets & bye!
Psychological dangers:
Definitely the addiction factor, as many others say. Although its a paradox, as lots of regular peevians consistently share the opinion that the effects themselves don't explain or excuse this absolutely obsessive redosing behavior increasing proportional to the time of peevee-availability. Even though i had a quite exhausting problem with i.v. cocaine (and heroine) abuse, it was still easier for me to control or stop a coke session than to stop smoking peevee. Even now, i still smoked... although i wanted to go to bed 2 or three hours before.
Sometimes i even forget my Buprenorphine (prescribed from doctor) until later in the day, which i _never_ did since i get it regularly.
So, in those regards i think peevee i very, very dangerous (to speak for me, of course).
Physical dangers:
No real facts i'm currently aware of. But i noticed that my lungs feel quite okay (not worser than before), but my hands and feet are cold all the time, which is probably due to vasoconstriction. I tried to fix that (or at least make it better) with Aspirin, which probably helped a bit, but it can also have been placebo. Not sure. But i only took one single tablet, containing 500mg.
Something else: did anyone else notice some green-to-grey, not-normal-looking poo? I'm not sure if it's peevee-related, maybe eating less and things like that also do their job...
Greets & bye!
Last edited:
Choronzon333
Bluelighter
Can u provide any references to this. I am interested in trying it but I don't want to do any unknown damage to my brain. I am not too worried about addiction as I have been prescribed amphetamines my whole life and have never suffered more that perhaps mild dependence which I can get by if I quit taking them for a month. It feels shitty but I can do it if I want so not worried about addiction.
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
^ Will see if I still have a copy of the paper detailing the toxicity of all the ring substituted 1-phenyl-2-(1-pyrrolidyl)-1-pentanones
Choronzon333
Bluelighter
thanks man
chaosbydesign
Bluelighter
I know someone who is addicted to mdpv the way you would be addicted to methamph...
I would think even though it is an MDXX, FAB is right about the probably insignificant effect on SERT (although im sure there is some), but i do think its probably neurotoxic (no evidence, of course) in the same way as amphetamine is, assuming use is frequent... plus, who knows, an MDXX-series chemical used daily definitely sounds like bad news to me.
Anyway, this friend had partial amnesia from MDPV after 3 days of use and an amphetamine-like psychosis. I dunno whether this was a 3 day full-on tweekend or just 3 doses spaced 24hrs apart but either way, I would definitely use with caution and id THINK its about the same as using methamph or methcathinone.
Of course, there is no KNOWN neurotoxicity, but do you guys think its safer than amphetamine and/or meth? How bout addiction potential?
fastandbulbous said:
I would think even though it is an MDXX, FAB is right about the probably insignificant effect on SERT (although im sure there is some), but i do think its probably neurotoxic (no evidence, of course) in the same way as amphetamine is, assuming use is frequent... plus, who knows, an MDXX-series chemical used daily definitely sounds like bad news to me.
Anyway, this friend had partial amnesia from MDPV after 3 days of use and an amphetamine-like psychosis. I dunno whether this was a 3 day full-on tweekend or just 3 doses spaced 24hrs apart but either way, I would definitely use with caution and id THINK its about the same as using methamph or methcathinone.
Of course, there is no KNOWN neurotoxicity, but do you guys think its safer than amphetamine and/or meth? How bout addiction potential?
chaosbydesign
Bluelighter
It scares me cuz since this is something people are actually using habitually along with mephedrone and the other non-hallucinogen rc's (e.g. 2ce or 4-aco-dmt are the "REGULAR" rc's), getting addicted and ordering all the time, soon use will be pretty widespread and the rc's will be cracked down on harder, and they are the only hope i have of evading the retarded street drug scene (if it wasnt for pot, i wouldnt be part of that scene at all anymore), im sick of looking out for cops, being scammed, and all the other shit ive had to put up with because of this modern prohibition.... RC's are a loophole that i hope does not start to close, even with the analog act.