• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
    Drugs

    Welcome Guest!
  • MDMA Moderators:

MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 5)

Status
Not open for further replies.
On another note is it just me or are the majority (but not all) LTC sufferers seemingly male?
I think thats likely an observational issue. For the record, females are thought to be more prone to neurotoxicity

But the observation of most people here being male could be explained by various confounders
 
Just caught up that comment and quote,

First do you have research backgrounds on your statement?

Also are these "generic changes" permanent?

In general the stress/anxiety, what the hell is the way to improve/fix that?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC86670/

For the record its not necessarily the healthiest to do a lot of research and such, but basically stress hormones can cause alterations in genetic transcription (protein creation) that result in temporary cell changes but said changes can take some time to revert and occasionally need encouragement

The prime example of this is reduced serotonin receptor sensitivity after elevated cortisol (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10557342/)
This is reversible however - basically all anti-depressant therapies re-sensitize the serotonin receptors

The general outline for treating these types of symptoms is

1. Mindfulness (learn with the Headspace app for starters)
2. Cardio
3. Discuss meds with doctors
4. Diet
5. Get good sleep
 
@howlow

I never saw that story on the xojane site. Interesting read. Good to see that she recovered

I agree this is most likely an observational issue in that guys are probably more likely to try to 'take action' and 'find answers' so end up on here. Or even besides that theres always the (sorry if I offend anybody-its not the intent) phrase you hear in gaming communities "no girlz on the internetz" as in guys are just more likely to end up here on BL.

My symptoms are primarily mild-moderate anxiety/depression yes. Benzos help both areas, no apathy. Quite the opposite and I feel more motivated. With the T replacement, the benzos actually seem to have even *more* of a potentiated effect btw in terms of anxiolytic/antidepression. To the point where I get "high" and *beyond normal* from the same low dose of benzo.

And I do have physical symptoms. The biggest one is nausea by far and yes it happens when I work out as well. This seems to not be correlated to Testosterone as much as other hormones and other things. Other stuff is the visual snow/tinnitus but its one of the lesser bothersome symptoms. In general, I was never that bothered by the physical symptoms as much as the psychological.

The physical I am like "whatever".

@cotcha

Yes the cortisol serotonin changes are reversible. But if anything it seems like MDMA has thrown people into a "too high" serotonin state right and thus some receptors like 5-HT2A need to be desensitized while others like 5-HT1A postsynpatic need to be sensitized right?

A lot of these LTC symptoms in particular like low libido/sexual issues seem like already a "high serotonin" state which messes up all kinds of endocrine things.

In fact, isnt there a theory that cortisol is sort of an adaptive *response* to too much serotonergic activity in order to dampen that down?

And that by this theory--SSRIs work by eventually downregulating "bad" receptors and achieving cortisol homeostasis?
 
Last edited:
@cotcha

Yes the cortisol serotonin changes are reversible. But if anything it seems like MDMA has thrown people into a "too high" serotonin state right and thus some receptors like 5-HT2A need to be desensitized while others like 5-HT1A postsynpatic need to be sensitized right?

5-HT2 downregulation and 5-HT1A sensitization is certainly found in correlative studies to be important for treating depression but there could be a lot to be said for the specific function of said receptors. After all, psychedelic stimulation of 5-HT2A can prove enormously effective for some people with depression.

In fact, isnt there a theory that cortisol is sort of an adaptive *response* to too much serotonergic activity in order to dampen that down?

And that by this theory--SSRIs work by eventually downregulating "bad" receptors and achieving cortisol homeostasis?
I wouldn't read too much into that, excess serotonin receptor stimulation isn't the best for brain function but cortisol isn't needed as an adaptive response to excess serotonergic activity because the serotonin receptors can just desensitize if the issue is excess 5-HT in the synapse
 
I wouldn't read too much into that, excess serotonin receptor stimulation isn't the best for brain function but cortisol isn't needed as an adaptive response to excess serotonergic activity because the serotonin receptors can just desensitize if the issue is excess 5-HT in the synapse

What is up with all the 'conflicting' depression theories though? There is the classic depression high cortisol theory but nowadays it seems like the studies are also showing lowered glucocorticoid status in depression and certainly in PTSD, of which depression can be a symptom.

I've read that Hydrocortisone just like Beta Blockers can often be useful in preventing the onset of PTSD and in reconciling/processing the trauma quickly. And also that sometimes HC itself has been used as treatment for PTSD itself. Personally, if a trauma ever happens to me sometime in the future I'm literally demanding these meds.

I find sleep deprivation to also help when used sparingly--one of the theories is that it can give a potent cortisol boost. And also probably better mood due to less time in REM sleep, adenosine, etc. Definitely NOT for people with insomnia though....
 
What is up with all the 'conflicting' depression theories though? There is the classic depression high cortisol theory but nowadays it seems like the studies are also showing lowered glucocorticoid status in depression and certainly in PTSD, of which depression can be a symptom.
I would't assume that there is only one depression and one cause of that depression, but I think there may be confusion when it comes to timelines RE: stress hypothesis of depression

Stress desensitizes homeostatic mechanisms that would normally act to decrease stress hormone output, this can result in increased circulating stress hormones (which is the general finding in MDD patients). As the brain endures the stress hormones there are changes to the cortical architecture and the brain begins to decrease its neuroplasticity. Decreased neuroplasticity and altered cortical architecture seems to be a common feature of depression and that may be where the focus best lay.

There can be desensitization of glucocorticoid receptors on some cells that results in decreased homeostatic regulation of the stress response, and re-sensitizing those GC receptors I'm sure is helpful, but that may be very different from sensitizing GC receptors on other cell types or in brain regions related to reward and motivation

Giving somebody a glucocorticoid will increase the activity of the hippocampus temporarily and this will allow for enhanced fear extenction (re: hydrocortisone use in PTSD) but the chronic effect of stress hormones seems to be that it decreases neuroplasticity: give somebody meds that boost neuroplasticity and allow for genuine remodeling and boosting of neurotrophic factors that increase brain cell health and generation of new brain cells, well then you can see genuine recovery from depression

Just to add to this stress-depression thing outside of the realm of homeostatic circuitry - chronic stress can also induce genes like DeltaFosB which affect the plasticity in reward related areas and the cortex.


I wouldn't necessarily link sleep deprivation improving mood to cortisol. Acute sleep deprivation has been used as tool to temporarily improve symptoms in depressives but I certainly wouldn't consider it a long term treatment, it could just be that as the brain runs out of ATP the ATP dependent sodium and potassium ion pumps fail and then the excitability of the brain increases

Altered sleep architecture in MDD is actually a good therapeutic target that is probably under valued
 
Idk man I mean I took the ketamine therapy which is supposed to boost BDNF but it resulted in some massive anxiety not the day of but in the following days. The day of I felt quite amazing but dissociated. Idk why it resulted in some lingering dissociation when the effects are supposed to dissapate after infusion. That was the more disconcerting aspect. The dissociation persisting should not have happened.
 
Idk man I mean I took the ketamine therapy which is supposed to boost BDNF but it resulted in some massive anxiety not the day of but in the following days. The day of I felt quite amazing but dissociated. Idk why it resulted in some lingering dissociation when the effects are supposed to dissapate after infusion. That was the more disconcerting aspect. The dissociation persisting should not have happened.

I would be careful with a line of reasoning such as: Ketamine boosts BDNF, I got dissociation/anxiety from ketamine, therefore BDNF causes anxiety

Ketamine and metabolites have various pharmacological mechanisms and they aren't going to selectively boost BDNF - and mind you what I wrote above applied to MDD specifically, which certainly not everybody with occasional depressive symptoms or "low motivation/low mood"
 
I would be careful with a line of reasoning such as: Ketamine boosts BDNF, I got dissociation/anxiety from ketamine, therefore BDNF causes anxiety

Ketamine and metabolites have various pharmacological mechanisms and they aren't going to selectively boost BDNF - and mind you what I wrote above applied to MDD specifically, which certainly not everybody with occasional depressive symptoms or "low motivation/low mood"

Alright yea I guess some of those treatments' research is highly specific for MDD. And seems like the definition of MDD itself is very strict too which I technically was never diagnosed with.

However, there is evidence coming out these days that it is supposed to also be helpful for the GAD/OCD stuff as well which is a bit concerning as I'd imagine the people with GAD/OCD would be-like me- more thrown off and anxious by lingering dissociation effects than somebody with straight up MDD.

I think it was glutamate or 5-HT that caused anxiety and lowered cortisol.
 
Last edited:
On another note is it just me or are the majority (but not all) LTC sufferers seemingly male?

There's a few of us girls around. Maybe males are more likely to post on a forum like this. Or it just started out that way and the thread took on a masculine tone which detured the female population. Just be glad you never have to worry about getting a period durring an ltc. Talk about intensified symptoms!
 
There's a few of us girls around. Maybe males are more likely to post on a forum like this. Or it just started out that way and the thread took on a masculine tone which detured the female population. Just be glad you never have to worry about getting a period durring an ltc. Talk about intensified symptoms!

Thanks for posting! I've actually been wondering about the hormonal theories of the LTC and whether girls would get increased/decreased symptoms during their period due to the progesterone-estradiol fluctuations that modulate GABA and 5-HT.
 
Can starting on SSRIS straight after monthly MD use cause any issues? or even aid recovery?
 
Can starting on SSRIS straight after monthly MD use cause any issues? or even aid recovery?
I started mirtazapine a month after.... helped me sleep but I think it gave me more floaters. Maybe wait a couple more months see how you feel.
 
Cotcha....what do you think about FBC's theory on the face tingling:

The HPPD is caused by serotonin up-regulation in the visual cortex. This happens to maintain bloodflow to this region. When serotonin levels drop, certain parts of the brain experience a drop in bloodflow.

This is why you are having sensations on your face. Different parts of the brain are connected directly to the nerves on the face/head. That's why elderly people with strokes sometimes have facial paralysis. What you are feeling is decreases/increases in blood flow to specific regions of your brain.
 
Cotcha....what do you think about FBC's theory on the face tingling:

"The HPPD is caused by serotonin up-regulation in the visual cortex. This happens to maintain bloodflow to this region. When serotonin levels drop, certain parts of the brain experience a drop in bloodflow."
This is my first time hearing about this theory of his but there are a few problems with what he's saying

Just as a primer, some 5-HT2A receptor upregulation (about 20% in chronic abusers) has been spotted in some prior MDMA abusers. This is the receptor that is chiefly responsible for psychedelic visuals - basically all psychedelics work via 5-HT2A. Anyways, the problems are thusly

1. If 5-HT2A upregulation in the cortex is causing HPPD symptoms, then a 5-HT2A inverse agonist (a blocker like pimavanserin, risperidone, mirtazapine) should be curative of symptoms. From what I've read, this doesn't seem to be the case. Pimavanserin would be the best test for this theory so I'll leave that as a caveat.

Pimavanserin is used to treat visual hallucinations in Parkinson's disease that are due to 5-HT2A supersensitivity, however Parkinson's disease patients usually have pretty darn marked hallucinations, not just visual disturbances.

2. The relationship between serotonin and cerebral blood flow is complex. 5-HT2A/5-HT2B and other receptors like 5-HT1B/5-HT1D located on arteries mediate vasoconstriction, so in that instance a drop in serotonin could actually cause vasodilation. There are meds like sumatriptan that work for migraine by constricting the arteries - its an activator of 5-HT1B/5-HT1D receptors. So in that sense, blood flow may not necessarily drop when serotonin drops. Some studies of meds that work on serotonin seem to support the idea that the relationship between serotonin and blood flow is very region dependent.

To complicate matters, there is a relationship between neural activity, cerebral blood flow and changes in the microvasculature structure such so that an increase in brain activity is followed by an increase in blood flow to that region.

Since 5-HT2A is the principle excitatory serotonin receptor throughout the brain, increased activity of 5-HT2A on neurons might be expected to increase bloodflow, and as an aside the thalamic visual processor called the LGN and the visual cortex have actually shown to have increased blood flow and excitability in MDMA abusers during some tasks (MDMA abusers who are not necessarily representative of the HPPD symptom people, but these people should have serotonin upregulation in visual cortex yet they also have increased blood flow there during some tasks)

As a caveat, 5-HT2A isn't the only receptor at play here, and studying the brain on psilocybin (magic mushrooms) with blood oxygen related techniques is a bit difficult specifically because psilocybin can cause a decoupling of the link between neural activity and cerebral blood flow. There is some question of whether the observed blood flow changes track very closely with the neural activity that we actually care about.

"This is why you are having sensations on your face. Different parts of the brain are connected directly to the nerves on the face/head. That's why elderly people with strokes sometimes have facial paralysis. What you are feeling is decreases/increases in blood flow to specific regions of your brain."
I would care to differentiate between sensory nerves and motor neurons here, and also stroke is a shitty example. Facial paralysis from stroke is most likely coming from issues with the brain but facial palsy can often come from issues with cranial nerves in the periphery.

By and large neuropathic symptoms of the cranial nerves seem to come from the periphery. As an example, I had pins and needles over one side of my head that were relieved by manual release of the back of my head/neck (where these relevant cranial nerves are). We also have occipital neuralgia, a condition with visual symptoms involving the cranial nerves in the back of the head in which people can have various head symptoms that are relived by lidocaine injection into said cranial nerves.


One thing that you'll notice is that the community is all over the place on HPPD theories. We have Henry Abraham who had proposed at one time that HPPD symptoms were due to a loss of 5-HT receptors, now we have FBC suggesting its due to too many serotonin receptors.

This kind of a sign that its all conjecture, when people are proposing completely opposite theories. I'm happy to throw in my shitty conjecture as well, but there is at least precedent for cranial nerves causing visual symptoms among other symptoms like the head tingling and pressure
 
Last edited:
Hey guys just doing my six month check in. It has officially been two years since my last mdma usuage. I have recovered so much since then but am not 100 percent either. I still have days that aren't so great but I also have days that are great. Life is awesome though and I have so much good stuff going for me. I just want to offer encouragement by saying the recovery is slow and sometimes feels nonexistent but it is definitely there. I have been and still am recovering slowly. I think if I recover this year as much as I did last year I'll be 100%. My symptoms have all become very manageable and not overwhelming. The worst one is occasionally I still face depersonalizations with anxiety. When that happens I do feel pretty bad but it never lasts long. My floaters are still here but way less severe and I never have brain zaps anymore. I have found that doing things I enjoy I completely forget I even have an LTC. I only really feel it when I am in situations I don't want to be in like work?. Guys keep your heads up. If you feel like your in hell I promise you won't always. For the first year maybe even year and a quarter I felt like I was in a living hell but that is now just a memory and reminder to be smart. I feel good most of the time and enjoy life so much and could not have said that even a year ago. Recovery will happen with complete sobriety and it's awesome. Don't hold yourselves back with any kind of narcotics, caffeine,cigs, or alcohol. Let your brain receptors recover. I know mine are. I strongly believe in five years from now none of us will be on bluelight anymore, we will be happy and recovered only more aware than we were before. We just have to make sure to occasionally check in and give the people who will make the same mistakes we did and encourage them. We all will get better. Recovery is real and I am living proof of it. You can email me if you want more details about my recovery,symptoms, and what I have done in the past two years if you want to. [email protected]. Life is good:) keep going guys I'll check back in six months!
 
I think head pressure can also be caused by hormones/NTs. My mild head pressure got better on TRT.

TRT has not been a total cure but my moods are better and I notice im able to be more productive in spite of the low moods when they come, so that is a plus. Also I feel pretty much recovered in the sexual domain. That 'sexual confidence' is back.

I have to say TRT has been better for the 'anxiety' side of things relative to the general mood. I'm able to break out of obsessions easier eg) hyperfocusing on the tinnitus
 
Clonidine is a terrible med lol. It doesn't make you sleepy at all... It just makes your heart beat big and slow... Terrible dry mouth..... nauseous....I took .15 mg and was dry heaving....shit sucks lol. Mirtazapine was much more pleasant
 
Clonidine is a terrible med lol. It doesn't make you sleepy at all... It just makes your heart beat big and slow... Terrible dry mouth..... nauseous....I took .15 mg and was dry heaving....shit sucks lol. Mirtazapine was much more pleasant

I havent tried Mirt but I thought Clonidine (well I technically used Guanfacine--but its pretty similar) for me was only useful for very high anxiety like an adrenaline rush type thing. It stops that cold in its tracks quickly.

Its been some time on TRT now so im considering augmentation of TRT with Lamictal or another med. I really want to just end this LTC shit once and for all.

I still need to "recover"/bump up my cortisol levels somehow without resorting to exogenous cortisone which is bad long term. Can Lamictal help re-align the HPA axis? I've also been taking Rhodiola but cannot say how much it helps.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top