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MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 4)

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Are you saying cortisol etc. is causal and that we should see LTC like symptoms in glucocorticoid users for example?

If a sample size of one means anything, I didn't have anything wrong with my hormones other than a tad bit low testosterone when I got my hormones checked out a while ago. I imagine others have had their hormones checked out as well.. I don't think it's as simple as HPA axis dysregulation.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
Are you saying cortisol etc. is causal and that we should see LTC like symptoms in glucocorticoid users for example?

If a sample size of one means anything, I didn't have anything wrong with my hormones other than a tad bit low testosterone when I got my hormones checked out a while ago. I imagine others have had their hormones checked out as well.. I don't think it's as simple as HPA axis dysregulation.
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not causal; however cortico-steroid abusers and those with Addisons/Cushings commonly have HPA Axis dysregulation

1. unless you had a spinal tap they didn't check CRH
2. have you had a cortisol or ACTH challenge?
3. 24 hours cortisol test?

HPA axis dysregulation is the underlying causal phenomena behind persistent Alcohol/Benzo withdrawal syndrome, and new literature has identified HPA axis dysregulation in mood disorders

One of the hallmark symptoms is hyper-adrenalized response to stressors that would have otherwise been mainly ignored - resulting in panic attack and the stress response

stress response =increased awareness, improved cognition, euphoria, and enhanced analgesia

then DP/DR when not in the hyper-adrenalized state

OF note is that Cocaine- and amphetamine-regulated transcript, is identified as having a major role in hypothalamic regulation and are released in response to repeated dopamine release

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181830/
 
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But isn't one end result of CRH cortisol release, therefore cortisol might be a surrogate Biomarker? I understand levels fluctuate a lot.

I had a private (non hospital setting) 4 point cortisol test taking levels in the morning, 2 during the day, and one at night, nothing was out of the ordinary although I don't remember the levels. But they were not too high or low and I still had typical LTC symptoms and severe insomnia. Regular lab cortisol / DHEA tests came back normal as well.

I'm not saying GABAergic/psychostimulant abusers don't have HPA dysfunction, what I'm wondering is if this is truly the cause of their symptoms - in cases where sympathetic rebound is apparent like in opoid withdrawal, clonidine is of great use because the sympathetic dysfunction is really causing a lot of symptoms, and I don't know if we see this in LTCs.

HPPD can often coincide with an LTC, and there are a lot of similarities between DR/DP reactions from psychedelics and LTCs from MDMA etc., I have a feeling an LTC could be from a compensation from an acute serotonin/serotonin signaling deficit after the trip or a reaction to excess serotonin during the trip (excess LTP via 5HT2A/glutamate heterodimer, would explain similarities between LTCs and adverse reactions to psychedelics, and previous adverse reactions to 2A agonists before a bad reaction to MDMA has been reported anecdotally).

This possible neural abnormality could cause the cognitive issues we see in studies and then a more "psychological" reaction to the cognitive memory issues brain fog etc. could cause elevated cortisol for the duration of when the subject is catastrophizing etc. to their "ruined lives", but I still would like to see laboratory data on elevated stress hormones causing MDMA adverse effects sufferers their LTC symptoms, and even resolution of this with a CRF antagonist and such. Surely they've taken laboratory data on cortisol in ex MDMA abusers somewhere along the line, but I would not equate this with laboratory data from LTC sufferers. But like I said even if we saw elevated stress hormones in LTC suffers we shouldn't assume this is the true cause of their symptoms.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
But isn't one end result of CRH cortisol release, therefore cortisol might be a surrogate Biomarker? I understand levels fluctuate a lot.

I had a private (non hospital setting) 4 point cortisol test taking levels in the morning, 2 during the day, and one at night, nothing was out of the ordinary although I don't remember the levels. But they were not too high or low and I still had typical LTC symptoms and severe insomnia. Regular lab cortisol / DHEA tests came back normal as well.

Surely they've taken laboratory data on cortisol in ex MDMA abusers somewhere along the line, but I would not equate this with laboratory data from LTC sufferers. But like I said even if we saw elevated stress hormones in LTC suffers we shouldn't assume this is the true cause of their symptoms.
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Yes, they have, and cortisol spikes 800% in some users -- and post use 3 month hair samples show that at some point during those 3 months, cortisol was up to 400% higher than controls.

I have still not seen any conclusive data regarding significant serotonin deficits persisting longer than a few days. TPH rebounds quickly, and is never 100% inhibited at doses human use. Serotonin synthesis actually never stops. (unless one is on a tryptophan deficient diet, and even then it only drops by 90% ) -- at normal rates of serotonin synthesis the entire storage of serotonin in the synaptic vesicles in the brain can be replaced in a few hours, actually minutes in some cases. - if you are really interested I can try and dig up the citation

No study actually shows any detrimental effects of the (possible) MDMA caused downregulation of SERT binding and 5HT expression in long term abstinent users. Memory deficit can be laid at the feet of cannabis and poly drug use, and there is simply no data identifying what the actual mean and SD of SERT binding IS in humans.

Furthermore, even with the proposed MDMA cause serotonergic deficits, the MDMA users were more well adjusted and less anxious/depressed than the controls.

The hypervigilant, pins and needles, insomniac, anxious, panicky, DP/DR symptoms are hallmarks of GABA/Glutamate imbalance.

That does not mean that the serotonin flood was not the genesis for the HPA dysregulation, as serotonin mediates GABA and glutamate release and metabolism.

If it is a serotonin deficit issue, then SSRI administration will resolve the symptoms; so that should be the first course of action. If SSRI administration does not resolve the symptoms, one can safely conclude it is either

1. Not serotonergic issues
or
2. not simply serotonergic, but also some other NT

My personal opinion is that the experience has caused the person to conflate the pleasure of a serotonin/dopamine/nor-epinephrine surge -- with the stress response. So every rise is seen as a fight/flight situation, resulting in HPA axis dysregulation and associated NT dysfunction. This conflation may be entirely biologically mechanistic - and not conscious at all.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
Can't seem to edit my short novel of a post so I'll add in response to the "SSRIs should help if its a serotonin issue sentiment", that may not be the case if the specific nerve terminals in question are gone or if they were gone so long that the cells around them have adapted persistently and cannot revert so easily, or even if the nerve terminals are intact but the cells adjacent are still compensating for the acute serotonin signaling deficit etc. you won't necessarily be able to correct that with SSRIs. There could also be variable affects on SERT inhibition among the different cell types and different cell types could be more or less responsible.
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There is absolutely ZERO evidence of axonal damage in humans caused by human doses of MDMA/MDA or MDXX.

The only apparent evidence is in animals given ridiculous doses of 10-20 mg/kg multiple times a day, multiple days in a row.

In the archive here http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/132152-Study-Questions-Toxic-Effects-of-MDMA-in-Monkeys , there is a rhesus monkey study regarding self-administration approximately 120 times over 18 months -- with no sign of any deficit -- and these were 2mg/kg to 4 mg/kg self administered doses or higher
 
I will buy me tomorrow some rhodolia, it's an adaptogen, maybe it helps to bring the disbalance in order, will tell you if it helped or not!
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
It's not like there is zero evidence that MDMA is causing harm in humans - its just not conclusive. Take this study for example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538835/

I'll stress again we should both delete our posts sometime.
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There is evidence of potential change -- but Zero evidence of harm

from your link:

"No statistically significant differences between the groups were observed for age, IQ score, depression, anxiety, impulsivity, or novelty ratings"

So if control and users have no differences wrt depression, anxiety and impulsivity --- Where is the purported harm?
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
this could just boil down to very specific terminal loss/degeneration/change of cells that an individual's brain is relying on in some way.
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Except there is NO Evidence of terminal loss.

There is evidence of apparent lower SERT binding, and lower 5HT binding , but also of apparent higher receptor densities.
 
shugenja said:
Very normal for a hyper-adrenalized state caused by HPA Axis dysregulation.

BTW -- How much adderall are you takin?
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None, I just took a 20 mg pill that night with the Molly.

It it may not be possible to get SS from jerking off, but it certainly exacerbated my symptoms and gave me new ones that won't go away. Didn't sleep at all last night with the Remeron, we'll see what tonight brings.
 
You have probably seen this but people report to have the first two weeks of starting an Anti-depressant to be difficult during an LTC but then say they feel much better after that.
 
ADubbs said:
None, I just took a 20 mg pill that night with the Molly.

It it may not be possible to get SS from jerking off, but it certainly exacerbated my symptoms and gave me new ones that won't go away. Didn't sleep at all last night with the Remeron, we'll see what tonight brings.
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Are you on 15mg?
 
fnono33 said:
You have probably seen this but people report to have the first two weeks of starting an Anti-depressant to be difficult during an LTC but then say they feel much better after that.
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That's wonderful they find relief.

However, this does not mean they are actually suffering from MDMA LTC, if could just as well mean that MDMA use exposed an existing mood disorder.
 
ADubbs said:
None, I just took a 20 mg pill that night with the Molly.

It it may not be possible to get SS from jerking off, but it certainly exacerbated my symptoms and gave me new ones that won't go away. Didn't sleep at all last night with the Remeron, we'll see what tonight brings.
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Have you tried Valium or Librium?
 
I see the brain damage debate is still raging for LTC sufferers. Does it matter? Nobody can say for sure the cause. Obviously something happened to the brain whether you want to call it brain damage or not. I could barely form a sentence for a couple of weeks and I've done MDMA like 4 times in my life. Of course, I never will again. Here are the facts: you will get better and it will take a long time. Also, treat the symptoms to help you get by, but don't go looking for a cure because one does not exist.

When I say treat the symptoms, I used Xanax for the free floating anxiety I experienced that lasted a few months (don't remember specifically how long it lasted now). And, if you choose to take an SSRI, some symptoms might even get worse for a couple of weeks, then I started to feel a little bit better every day. If you give up beforehand, you won't reap any of the benefits down the line. To be clear, for those two weeks, I was bed-ridden for the most part. That's how sick I was and another blue-lighter swore to me that two weeks was the time frame it took for things to get better so I kept going. I took Paxil for about a year and a half before I quit. No depression and absolutely zero return of any symptoms afterwards.

My LTC started 2.5 years ago. Life if perfectly "normal" these days! Best wishes and hang in there!
 
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