mdma and the ego and social implications

[Harambulus]

Hey guys, I have tried many diff substances and prob of them all mdma is my most favoured in how it affects the ego although I have been thinking it may not be a simple 'dissolution' effect as would be the case with something like shrooms/lsd.

So how would you guys say it affects it? Some have described it as a 'softening' of the ego which I think to be quite accurate.

Usually I find myself really judgmental of ppl and very 'black and white' in my thinking. I very hastily write people off if they don't fit into my strict criteria of standards for someone I'd want to talk to.

I see this as mostly an asset and all in all accurate however I find it useful to 'reality test' now and then with drugs to check I was not just becoming myopic. Ideally in future I won;t feel the urge to use drugs for this but for the time being it has proved useful.

When I take mdMA however it makes me think that my usual 'prickly' ego is flawed and I think what a cunt I am.

I have time for everyone and all that.

Thing is though, as we all know with that dreaded shock back to reality of coming down in some randomers house thinking 'who the fuck are these people!?' there is also that sense that MDMA gives you a false sense of empathy with people and when it wears off you want to get out of whatever bonds you may have made with random strangers. I suppose avoiding this can be achieved in part by not getting 'too fucked' so you act too out of character that you regret what you did the next day (no different to alcohol).

Now it isn't always the case but often. In the cases it isn't it's usually that I would have had alot in common with those people anyway so in those cases the mdma only acted to motivate me to talk to people I wouldn't have usually and once the loved up haze wears off I realize I just happen to still have things in common with these people so remain friends with them due to that- tho this has been rare instances.

This I've seen termed as 'inappropriate bonding' which I think fits the bill well.

As I took mdma more I found myself better controlling that, like the inexperienced drinker acts like a fool at first but then with some time they get a handle on the substance, same with mdma.

So for therapeutic purposes I find it helpful to take mdma now and then cos it acts as a reality test to see if my ego has become overzelous but all in all I think my ego is doing a good job, as to me it's main purpose (in the social arena) is to keep out fuckheads who would wreck my life rather than improve it.

Without a respite though the ego can get quite stifling that's why I find it good to have a nice knees up with mdma now and then.

Long term I'd like to have a good enough life that I didn't feel the urge for a 'pressure release' by taking a substance but I find every few months that I do get like a buildup of anxiety and find a drug session usually fixes it although I don't have any urge to take them after that til the next round.

Ideally, long term, the pressure would not build to such a peak in the first place and rather I would live a more balanced life not wanting to equal out considerable lows with really peaking highs but rather live in a constant decent baseline. Hilly terrain rather than himalayas or something.

Thoughts?

 

[Legerity]

It sounds to me like you have found a way to use MDMA that offers you an emotional release without causing abuse or significant problems. I don't see the desire to alter our consciousness as a weakness that needs to be overcome, but rather a natural desire that we can satisfy in ways that are not self-destructive. Because our society shuns altered states, we are not really taught how to achieve and enjoy them safely. Having rules

I think a softening of the ego is a great way of describing MDMA. I see psychedelics as being able to dissolve the ego and provide knowledge from outside that framework. MDMA to me seems more suited toward doing psychological work within the ego framework rather than transcending it. This can be why psychedelics are more the domain of shamans whereas MDMA is finding it's place in psychotherapy.

A lot of people will argue that the experience is "fake", but an experience is an experience. If using MDMA just to get as fucked up as possible, the experience will not be as meaningful as if taken in the proper setting with carefully selected people. I also think a certain amount of emotional maturity is required in order to make sense of the ups and downs and integrate the experience into one's ordinary consciousness.

 

[Harambulus]

Good reply.

Well I have no qualms with the using a substance to alter the consciousness (on a moral basis or anything silly like that) except on a cost/benefit basis no matter what dose I take, the amount required to be an active dose will cause enough body load that I would still feel it the next day or two. So in that sense, due to my dislike of the after effects, I would like to nix it out long term.

In terms of set and setting I have found my most beneficial experiences coming from going to social gatherings and dancing as we all know it's great for that. I just say that as I think it's more 'therapeutic' to just dance away, at least for me, as I can reach 'spiritual' experiences, rather than just sitting around gassing to a counselor; although I'm sure there would be benefit in that too. I guess there is therapeutic benefit in whatever setting you take it (within reason) provided, like you say, it is used with the intention of therapy or at least in moderation without the sole purpose being to 'get totally fucked up'.

Also to add- I think you termed it nicely in saying that it helps you work within the framework of the ego whereas the classic psychedelics take you outside of it. As such I found that lsd/shrooms etc, weren't as helpful as MDMA because with them you are taken outside of your ego and given all these cool revelations but when it wears of you are brought back to the same ego which you may have condemned while in the throes of the trip thinking 'ok, so I'm back in the same place I started, what now?'. Conversely, and I note this too could be the case with mdma if taken in the ways which we have said would not be therapeutic, it offers itself better to 'ego work' cos as you said, you are still working within that framework and so could chose to gently push your boundaries while on the substance.

This is what I like to do- take small steps in whatever direction I may wish to which I may find uncomfortable without the substance. This way, as it is small steps which aren't too outside of the realms of my normal action that I would want to repress the behaviour once the drug wears off, I can then accept them and incorporate them as a part of my everyday ego. So I guess to sum up it is useful as a tool for positive change work.

 

[peacefuldreamer09]

I find that ecstacy (for me at least) makes you realize that people are mostly good, that however different we are, we can coexist not just in peace, but very happily. We all have our faults, but you learn what matters and what doesn't. I would say, yes, "softening of the ego" is an apt description. As with any substances that increase empathy or alter your perception, you realize that life goes on with or without you, for the most part you are welcome in so many places, with so many people. I've always liked that it brings people together, forms lifetime friendships, since you are able to check the ego and just be real.

 

[AlkaloidsEye]

Legerity i really appreciated your comments. They resonate with me.

Harambulus while i do not dance much while on MDMA it does helps me work through many ego, emotional, and spiritual issues while i am on it and afterwards as well. I like the way you described the differences between MDMA and, for me, true psychotropic/-delic drugs. Tryptamines, for example, have been exceedingly good to me.

If i had not also simultaneously worked on my ego from the "inside" with MDMA though, then i feel that many of my gains might not have happened. Admittedly, stopping my consumption of alcohol also played a huge role, but i couldn't make much sense of any of the benefits i had received from my use of MDMA, mushrooms, etc.

 

[AndroidsDreamofBTC]

Yeah one of the unique things about MDMA is how it allows for psychedelic like effects while keeping your ego intact. You're able to evaluate your life in positive objectivity. You can think about the problems in your life/personality without shame, regrets or general anxiety. Everything just makes so much sense, everything is okay.

I often get similar feelings of empathy/entactogenesis on LSD/Shrooms, but I am usually too far gone to be able to properly communicate these feeling to other people. Sure, everyone who is on LSD understands (you don't event need to say - "hey man, it's good to know you") what those feelings, but its nice to occasionally enjoy feelings of empathy/entactogenesis with your mind more or less intact.

MDMA is awesome, isn't it?

 

[RGB]

I agree with Legerity and co. -- MDMA is a fantastic opportunity to relieve oneself of their preconceptions about other people, but the experience is only meaningful if we take the time to integrate it. Even then, we're faced with the question of how much of the MDMA experience we want to actually keep in our lives and how much we'd rather write off as simply being under the influence (which is totally acceptable, too).

I really like the point about psychedelics being "ego-dissolving" whereas MDMA is "ego-softening"; in both cases, pride takes a back seat, but for different reasons. I think this makes MDMA as difficult to integrate (perhaps more so) than psychedelics, because all of the revelations do occur in something that seems closer to reality, thus they hit closer to home. If you consider yourself a straight male and then make out with a guy while rolling, you can't simply say "well, I didn't exist as a person at the time" as you would on LSD (assuming this would ever happen on LSD, heh). You may have to accept that there are some difficult unanswered questions about your sexuality...or you can just write it off as being on drugs. 8) Integration becomes difficult because it doesn't challenge simply your concept of self, but the social construction of yourself, a topic on which most people already feel kind of insecure...

(Going off on a bit of a personal tangent here...I hope it's not too off-topic...)

MDMA is strange in my opinion because (at its best) it shows us a world that we all superficially agree would be better: a place where strangers are instantly best friends, where you can talk about anything and everything and be met with eager acceptance rather than distrust. There are no ulterior motives, no destructive behaviors, no problems that can't be solved. Visiting this world begs a difficult question: if we were to lay aside our differences, could we always live like this?

I personally think the answer is a tentative "no", and I say this because I believe that people truly value their problems. When you have to compete with others, you strive to differentiate yourself any way that you can. Whether it be through hollow elitism, prizing your traumatic experiences as making you "tougher", etc. etc. these traits become a part of one's conception of themselves and almost by definition make it impossible to feel total and honest empathy for others. Of course, I could just be feeling pessimistic right now; perhaps such a thing is possible with a little effort and impetus to change.

I'm curious what you think, and sorry if I'm derailing the thread somewhat. Thanks for providing me some food for thought regardless.

 

[dimlyFourOwls]

I'd agree with you, RGB. What defines a person is so much more than just their happiness and empathy, their "positive traits". Personally, I love the cynical, pessimistic, sardonic, dark, eerie possibilities for a personality. The birthplace of dark humor. E.g. PFSC.

I have a friend who was prescribed antidepressants, and ended up feeling worse on them than off them. Like a part of him was missing. He's coming off them now, because he'd rather feel whole and sometimes depressed than an empty shell.


Having said that, I kind of wish people would take friendships they made while rolling more serious once they've come down. There is a lot to appreciate about people.

 

[Harambulus]

Great replies.

I dunno about the valuing the pessimistic sides. I'd assent to them being formative influences to one's character though which can still have positive byproducts.

Although I think buddhism, some schools of it at least, can go too far in the bashing of the ego, I do think that it is pretty universal that being without those negative effects of ego is a positive thing.

Like I think there is having a 'big ego' vs. having a strong ego. The former being that shallow elitism previously mentioned vs. having a well developed/self actualized personality which would be attributed to a strong ego.

I think mdma probs gives you a temporarily strong ego cos you are still motivated to chat people and even if they renege you it aint no thang but a chicken wing.

It's strange how self-fulfilling prophecies manifest themselves while on and off mdma- although this can be just the same as when not on mdma but in a great mood- MDMA is just like mood in a can.

For example if I talk to a someone I don't know when not on E I usually have a very low buffer before I think to myself 'they aren't very friendly/don;t wanna talk to me, fuck them' and move on. Conversely due to that urge to connect with people while on MDMA, even if I may not get a positive reaction right away, due to my incorrigible spirit at that time, even if the person were in a bad mood I 'spread the good vibes' such that they now want to chat me/can't resist warming to me.

This becomes a knock on effect as once they warm up and start to smile it encourages me and gets me more into the interaction like a positive feedback loop. Thing is usually it would be a negative feedback loop as I would give up before hitting pay dirt and not be motivated to hit pay dirt instead thinking to myself 'I don't care, I'm not very social anyway, just as well'.

I try and emulate this while not on drugs but I find it a real drag mostly.

 

[Legerity]

@AlkaloidsEye: Thank you

@RGB: I tend to agree that in our current state, it seems to be impossible for us to live in such a way. But I think if as a species we are to continue evolving, we will have to change our way of relating to one another. Terrance McKenna has interesting insights on the role of psychedelics in evolution. Our consciousness needs to change first in order to change the way we live - and I do think substances like MDMA and the psychedelics are a way of achieving this.

The last two trips I did literally have changed who I am and changed my direction in life. Or maybe change isn't the right word, it's more like it helped remove layers and to become more authentic. When I used psychedelics in the past with an immature mind I had fun but nothing really changed in me. Insights are not limited to the high itself, they can definitely be transferred and worked with after the drug wears off. Isn't that a beautiful thing?