MDAI impurities

[any major dude]

So the brown MDAI thats been going around apparently comes out white with a simple heptane wash. I imagine dichloromethane may work even better, but I have yet to try either myself. The brown MDAI is supposedly 98.5% pure, could a 1.5% impurity turn it all brown? My first reaction is no, but I'm far from sure. Also, I may be able to post a copy of a GC/MS analysis of it later, if so I hope someone can interpret those better than me (at all).

Also, I'm utterly unfamiliar with the synth of MDAI, does anyone have any idea what might turn it brown so uniformly?

And a side note, there's been some 2c-t-2 with an orangeish tint, I'd assume this could be caused by a presence of a small amount of 2,5 dimethoxy 4-ethylthio-(β)-nitrostyrene, is this a reasonable assumption?

 

[cegli]

Very small amounts of impurities can seriously color a batch, so a 1.5% impurity could certainly turn it all brown.

Sounds reasonable about the nitrostyrene assumption (I think I remember reading they were orange in PiHKAL), but that's a little out of my realm of knowledge.

 

[dread]

Also, I'm utterly unfamiliar with the synth of MDAI

I would wager a guess that it would have to do with reductive amination of the 2-indanone... Thus, 5,6-MDO-2-indanone could be an impurity? The ketone used for MDMA & MDA synth is a yellow oil, so it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume the indanone might be a brownish oil?

 

[MurphyClox]

I would wager a guess that it would have to do with reductive amination of the 2-indanone...

Nope, not exactly. But we all know: Thou shalt not discuss synthesis at Bluelight!

Probable impurities are (at least if the manufacturers took the published route for MDAI):
- the resp. 1,2-dioxoindane (which was described as being of 'golden-yellow' (sic) color)
- condensation-products of the former (it easily condenses to give a dimer, made of two indanones that are bridged with a double-bond; this dimer is most probably yellow to brown coloured, too)
- other indane-based polymers


Cheers! - Murphy

 

[organicshroom]

^ How toxic are these impurities?

 

[dread]

Well, it seems I'm not very good at guessing...

It's just, I could swear I've seen 2-indanones being sold as precursors... perhaps they're used for something else?

 

[any major dude]

^ How toxic are these impurities?

well if the 1.5% figure is accurate, it shouldn't really matter, as a 200mg dose would be 3mg impurities, and I doubt 3mg of any of the listed by products would have any effect. This is just a guess though. Obviously if you were taking massive doses of this on a regular basis it might be a problem, but I'd imagine you'd run into some negative effects of MDAI before the 1.5% impurities started to catch up with you... again if that figure is accurate. Also it is likely that the 1.5% is made up of at least 2 or 3 different substances, so that further reduces the likelihood of ingesting a toxic amount of one.

Nope, not exactly. But we all know: Thou shalt not discuss synthesis at Bluelight!

Probable impurities are (at least if the manufacturers took the route way for MDAI):
- the resp. 1,2-dioxoindane (which was described as being 'golden-yellow' (sic) color)
- condensation-products of the former (it easily condenses to give a dimer, made of two indanones that are bridged with a double-bond; this dimer is most probably yellow to brown coloured, too)
- other indane-based polymers


Cheers! - Murphy

Thanks man! This is interesting as the first batch (hcl salt) I was aware of going around was a tan color, and the second (freebase) was doo doo brown. I thought this curious at first, but it does seem to make more sense now.

 

[MurphyClox]

^ How toxic are these impurities?

well if the 1.5% figure is accurate, it shouldn't really matter, as a 200mg dose would be 3mg impurities, and I doubt 3mg of any of the listed by products would have any effect. This is just a guess though. Obviously if you were taking massive doses of this on a regular basis it might be a problem, but I'd imagine you'd run into some negative effects of MDAI before the 1.5% impurities started to catch up with you... again if that figure is accurate. Also it is likely that the 1.5% is made up of at least 2 or 3 different substances, so that further reduces the likelihood of ingesting a toxic amount of one.

I think that this is a misconception. There are numerous substances that are highly active in the one digit milligram-range. Just imagine some kind of hormone-like activity.
Honestly speaking, I have absolutely no idea about the toxicity of the mentioned impurities. You better be very very careful with guessing here. As nobody seems to have died yet of MDAI, they seem to be at least not acutely lethal. But toxicity can develop in many directions

- Murphy

 

[BobWeir'd]

I got 2 different MDAI batches.

The white one was not only different in colour to the brown but very different in texture smell and taste. In fact the brown tasted and smelled of nothing. the white one tastes and smells vile.

The brown one did nothing. The white I haven't tried yet.

 

[Ceres]

Thanks man! This is interesting as the first batch (hcl salt) I was aware of going around was a tan color, and the second (freebase) was doo doo brown. I thought this curious at first, but it does seem to make more sense now.

The free base is an oil yes? I get the impression it's not uncommon for obvious defects in appearance such as colour to be brushed aside by suggestions that it's the "freebase" form of the drug.

So the brown MDAI thats been going around apparently comes out white with a simple heptane wash. I imagine dichloromethane may work even better, but I have yet to try either myself.

What is the reasoning behind choosing heptane, and why involve DCM atall? I successfully decolourised some with water... but white is no indication of purity atall, I'm curious to know if there is some intended selectivity in those solvent choices.

 

[andreas]

boil it in fine carbon, filter, extract and re-crystalise

usually does the job if its not to dirty

or learn to run a TLC

 

[nevada]

MDAI TLC chemical question

hi everybody, i've read all the issues about this and other forums, about mdai impurities, and color differencies... i found out that there are 4 types/white, tan, dark brown powder, dark brown wet...that's worrying in a grey market like that one of RCs

so , I was actually wondering about doing a TLC on an MDAI sample... maybe it could find some impurities... which solvent should be used for this job?

 

[any major dude]

I'd be interested to see some comparative solubility info. I know water has to be at least 25C, and thorough agitation is necessary to get MDAI into an aqueous solution, but other than that, haven't found much info.

 

[Skyline_GTR]

^really? I disolved white hcl with very little agitation in a small glass of cold tap water. Granted the dry tan/brown variety I've had previously didnt disolve, it formed more like a dirty suspension.

 

[any major dude]

well, now that i think about it i can't remember if that was the solubility info for the hcl or freebase. I'll check, and depending on location, tap water may be around that temperature

 

[wungchow]

prepare a TLC plate in chloroform or 1:10 methanol:dichloromethane

that should give you an idea of the number and relative % of impurities present

 

[nevada]

an useless kitchen tlc experiment

so... this is probably a very useless and pointless experiment.. i known from the beginning that without a proper solvent one couldn't do much.. but i wanted to give it a try
...but....here is the whole story:

the fact is that i had some tlc plates leftover from another experiment...so, watch out.. they are recycled plates..! i know this isn't going to be good for a successful experiment but...its hard to find tlc plates in a period you're not hanging arund a lab.. same thing for the DCM...so.. at the moment DCM wasn't unaccessible to me and, i tried to do the tlc with the solvents i had.

about the suspected powder:
the mdai we're talking in here is brown, dark brown,mostly fine powder, with some "clots" (i'm not english and i don't know if this word describes it correctly)
vendor says its HCL, but, to me its identical to the freebase sold before(which was active at 100 mg). vendor, is chinese, provides even NMR spectrum and says impurity is about 8%(so it may apparently colour over all the thing)
vendor says is a "tan coloured powder"-
anyway, in another forum there is a posted pic of this batch.

here are some solubility experiments i did:
mdai was found solubile in warmed vinegar(warmed in microwave), low solubility in ethanol(but that as not warmed), and pretty unsolubile in naphta.also unsolubile in HCL at room temp.

so, after all this, i think i wasted the TLC plates i had, running 4 tlc:
1 with washed mdai
3 tlc made using not washed mdai were done with, naphta, vinegar and ethanol +vinegar
washed mdai solvent used is vinegar 52%
not washed mdai, alchool+vinegar 22%
not washed mdai, vinegar 38%
not washed mdai, naphta -->unsoluble

after those results,which are probably very contaminated(other than useless).. so do not count much on them, BUT seems that after the wash, the spot left on the plate by mdai was in an higher place, indicating an higher solubility in the solvent (acidic h2o) if compared to non washed mdai, thus less imurities (i guess its obvious even without doing a tlc!! )

so, this made me think:
1. there are un-solubile solid impurities, with higher affinity to a non-polar solvent
those can get rid using a very simple filtration(they are like sand)
2. there are solubile impurities that go away with a nonpolar wash
3. after 1 wash the color becomes yellow
4. adding NaHCO3 color gets slightly darker

so the conclusion is that the experiment was a complete waste of time. in some months maybe i will get some other tlc plates and some dcm, and i will repeat the experiment..

 

[nevada]

Nope, not exactly. But we all know: Thou shalt not discuss synthesis at Bluelight!

Probable impurities are (at least if the manufacturers took the published route for MDAI):
- the resp. 1,2-dioxoindane (which was described as being of 'golden-yellow' (sic) color)
- condensation-products of the former (it easily condenses to give a dimer, made of two indanones that are bridged with a double-bond; this dimer is most probably yellow to brown coloured, too)
- other indane-based polymers


Cheers! - Murphy

1,2-dioxoindane seems to be patented as a hair dye. may be that that makes the color? actually it also seems not to be too much toxic, binds to Acetylcholinesterase,Butyrylcholinesterase,Acyl coenzyme A:cholesterol acyltransferase (according to ebi.ac.uk)

but, i've analised the nmr spectrum of mdai+impurity and compared it to 1,2-dioxindane(or 1,2-indanedione) spectra can't find similarities between it and the impurity of mdai. however i'm not too good in interpretating the spectra, and i'm not sure that the impurity would be identificable by just analizing the spectra.

 

[TheAzo]

I was able to resolve the "dogshit" freebase batch from our friends in asia into not two, but three substances or collections thereof.

Brown shit insoluble in hot heptane. This comprised close to 50% of the weight of the material as supplied!
White material which was reasonably soluble in hot heptane, and precipitated on chilling the solution. This is the active portion. This constitutes 20-40% of the material as supplied.
White material which is much less soluble in hot heptane, and does not precipitate appreciably on chilling the solvent. This constitutes the balance of the sample.

Someone compared the tan and really clean MDAI crystal sourced from an indian lab, and reported that the white stuff was much better. That suggests that the tan stuff has gotten most of the brown out, but left the white stuff in. He also reported that the MDAI crystal was easilly and fully water soluble, while the tan stuff was not (the white impurity identified above is not water soluble).

In any case, it's now only of academic importance, as multiple vendors have clean MDAI, and more will have it in the next few weeks, for half the price that the dogshit was going for.

 

[nevada]

i see...so you suggest heptane for the wash, followed by cold precipitation, right?

i was searching for an easier to find solvent for the same job

i know vendors are now popping out from nowhere, some selling both "brown" and "white" mdai. that's ridiculous!

at first i trusted only the asian one.. but if that's what they sell...
now i want to take out as much as possible from my "dogshit".

after all this, the real color of the real mdai should be white.
good to know... hope that 50% brown stuff isn't something too toxic btw...