US Politics Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2020
- Thread starter cduggles
- Start date
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
Honestly I wouldn't be too shocked if it were true. I mean the claim was highest murder rate of any western capital.
Someone's gotta be the highest. Even if it were true it probably doesn't mean very much just by itself.
Now the point of my post was “would a gun ban have much of an affect on the US murder rate ! Maybe a tiny amount , but I doubt drastic , but that’s my personal view #
So let’s have a look at some fig for the 3 big western countries U.K. France German.
So the U.K. with its strictest gun controls sits in between France and German who have 4-5 times the amount of firearms #
The murder rate per 100
1st ... FRANCE 1.35 per 100
( population 65,129,720 )
Guns per 100 = 19.6
Total 8,230,765
2nd ... UK 1.20 per 100
( population 67,530,170 )
Guns per 100 = 4.6
Total 1,870,735
3rd ... GERMANY 1.18
( population 83,517,040 )
Guns per 100 = 19.6
Total 9,992,000
I do apologies I couldn’t find the murder statistics / rate per capital per 100 / 1000 as promised the latest one I found was 2012
But as I write this . There’s been another machete attack on the streets of London
So let’s have a look at some fig for the 3 big western countries U.K. France German.
So the U.K. with its strictest gun controls sits in between France and German who have 4-5 times the amount of firearms #
The murder rate per 100
1st ... FRANCE 1.35 per 100
( population 65,129,720 )
Guns per 100 = 19.6
Total 8,230,765
2nd ... UK 1.20 per 100
( population 67,530,170 )
Guns per 100 = 4.6
Total 1,870,735
3rd ... GERMANY 1.18
( population 83,517,040 )
Guns per 100 = 19.6
Total 9,992,000
I do apologies I couldn’t find the murder statistics / rate per capital per 100 / 1000 as promised the latest one I found was 2012
But as I write this . There’s been another machete attack on the streets of London
And the other extreme Switzerland
With a 0.54 per 1000 murder rate
Population of 8,591,365
Guns ownership is 27.6 per 100
With a 0.54 per 1000 murder rate
Population of 8,591,365
Guns ownership is 27.6 per 100
cduggles
Bluelight Crew
Yeah, but they also have mandatory military service for males in Switzerland.
Delusional Thomas
Bluelighter
I like guns... I like guns a lot.
I'm also very passionate about gun safety and educating yourself on how to properly operate and carry firearms. CCW classes (in most states) just give you the basics. I think people need to take it upon themselves to further their education. Whether by doing your own research (blogs/forums/videos) or paying a professional to train you.
I also think people need to spend time at a range and practice with all of their guns. Many people own guns that they've never fired once. Those people make me nervous. Guns are dangerous if handled in an unsafe manner. There's a few simple rules that must be followed at all times. Follow those rules, and accidents can't/won't happen.
As far as bad guys with guns, I don't think there's much we can do about that. You could outlaw certain guns. But many of the "bad guys" already obtained these weapons illegally so the laws are obviously meaningless to them. I don't think arming "EVERYBODY" is the answer either. But I feel a little safer knowing there's people out there with the ability to defend themselves and others against a deadly threat.
My personal reason for arming myself is 100% to protect myself and my family. It's a sad and crazy world out there. I was robbed at gunpoint as a teen and had a gun pulled on a separate occasion around that same time. I've never felt more powerless than I did looking down the barrel of that gun as some stranger took everything I had. I refuse to be a victim again. I pray I'm able to live out my entire life without having to use a gun on somebody. As an annoyingly empathetic empath, I can't imagine the psychological damage that would cause knowing I took somebody's life. BUT... If somebody is an immediate threat to me or my family's life, I will end them immediately without a second thought... and just deal with the PTSD later
I'm also very passionate about gun safety and educating yourself on how to properly operate and carry firearms. CCW classes (in most states) just give you the basics. I think people need to take it upon themselves to further their education. Whether by doing your own research (blogs/forums/videos) or paying a professional to train you.
I also think people need to spend time at a range and practice with all of their guns. Many people own guns that they've never fired once. Those people make me nervous. Guns are dangerous if handled in an unsafe manner. There's a few simple rules that must be followed at all times. Follow those rules, and accidents can't/won't happen.
As far as bad guys with guns, I don't think there's much we can do about that. You could outlaw certain guns. But many of the "bad guys" already obtained these weapons illegally so the laws are obviously meaningless to them. I don't think arming "EVERYBODY" is the answer either. But I feel a little safer knowing there's people out there with the ability to defend themselves and others against a deadly threat.
My personal reason for arming myself is 100% to protect myself and my family. It's a sad and crazy world out there. I was robbed at gunpoint as a teen and had a gun pulled on a separate occasion around that same time. I've never felt more powerless than I did looking down the barrel of that gun as some stranger took everything I had. I refuse to be a victim again. I pray I'm able to live out my entire life without having to use a gun on somebody. As an annoyingly empathetic empath, I can't imagine the psychological damage that would cause knowing I took somebody's life. BUT... If somebody is an immediate threat to me or my family's life, I will end them immediately without a second thought... and just deal with the PTSD later
novaveritas
Bluelighter
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Taking the stats of murders (intentional homicide) per 100k pop, at face value is not so helpful.
In some states and cities with strict gun control the murder rates are higher than those with more gun freedom. But the converse also applies there are states with strict gun control where the murder rate is much lower than the gun freedom states
It helps to think what these numbers really mean
murder rates per 100,000 people is skewed by data from places with small populations,
There was one murder in Moserrat in 2012, which is about 20 murders per 100,000
In Mexico there were 27000 murders which is 22 murders per 100 000
So if you take the raw numbers then Mexico is only roughly 10% more murderous than Monserrat. I suggest approximately 26999 people would disagree.
Mexico has fairly strct gun control and lots of murders. South Africa has extremely loose gun control and lots of murders. You can argue whether Mexico has strict gun control in reality, but getting a legal gun in mexico is much more difficult than South Africa.
Personally I have no problem with guns, I have problems with people killing each other.
Maybe mass shootings have nothing to do with the prevalence of guns. Guns are something politicians can blame. It is a cheap shot to blame an inanimate object for something people do. politicians can write on a piece of paper make lots of noise and look like they are fixing something. Maybe the anti gun agenda also has to do with disempowering the people as part of a larger longer term agenda.
If you make guns illegal only the criminals and the govt goons (same thing) will have guns. It is difficult to restrain the government with a disarmed population.
In some states and cities with strict gun control the murder rates are higher than those with more gun freedom. But the converse also applies there are states with strict gun control where the murder rate is much lower than the gun freedom states
It helps to think what these numbers really mean
murder rates per 100,000 people is skewed by data from places with small populations,
There was one murder in Moserrat in 2012, which is about 20 murders per 100,000
In Mexico there were 27000 murders which is 22 murders per 100 000
So if you take the raw numbers then Mexico is only roughly 10% more murderous than Monserrat. I suggest approximately 26999 people would disagree.
Mexico has fairly strct gun control and lots of murders. South Africa has extremely loose gun control and lots of murders. You can argue whether Mexico has strict gun control in reality, but getting a legal gun in mexico is much more difficult than South Africa.
Personally I have no problem with guns, I have problems with people killing each other.
Maybe mass shootings have nothing to do with the prevalence of guns. Guns are something politicians can blame. It is a cheap shot to blame an inanimate object for something people do. politicians can write on a piece of paper make lots of noise and look like they are fixing something. Maybe the anti gun agenda also has to do with disempowering the people as part of a larger longer term agenda.
If you make guns illegal only the criminals and the govt goons (same thing) will have guns. It is difficult to restrain the government with a disarmed population.
awesome31311
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Americans killing school kids is either a crisis or it isn't, depending on who the student is
For example, they routinely bomb hospitals and schools in Afghanistan, Syria, etc. Real rich how the world's biggest school shooter is now whining about their schools being shot up by their own homegrown white kids.
Video games aren't necessarily to blame. Depends on the game. Nobody thinks that shooting up civilian areas or blowing them up is honorable or heroic by playing DOOM, but they do when they play propaganda terrorist simulations like CoD
The guns aren't the issue. The mental illnesses aren't the issue. These things exist in other countries too. It's an issue of having a culture of glorified violence.
For example, they routinely bomb hospitals and schools in Afghanistan, Syria, etc. Real rich how the world's biggest school shooter is now whining about their schools being shot up by their own homegrown white kids.
Video games aren't necessarily to blame. Depends on the game. Nobody thinks that shooting up civilian areas or blowing them up is honorable or heroic by playing DOOM, but they do when they play propaganda terrorist simulations like CoD
The guns aren't the issue. The mental illnesses aren't the issue. These things exist in other countries too. It's an issue of having a culture of glorified violence.
Cream Gravy?
Bluelight Crew
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You'd be surprised at how little firearm training helps with some people. I watched a girl bruise her eye once because she was an idiot and put it right up behind the iron sights of her rifle. She was then scared to rest her cheek on the butt-stock from then after and would take aim, move her face, THEN shoot. She was a God awful shot.
Technically, the first real mass shooting was enacted by an ex-Marine at UT's bell-tower. Military training does nothing to protect the mind from insanity. If anything, it can break it.
I think firearms should be legal. I think even fully-automatic ones should be. But mandatory military service isn't what keeps Switzerland's murder rate down despite high rates of firearm ownership; fact is, people are happier to be alive there, plain and simple. It's easier to be sane if you're content.
Last edited:
Switzerland's murder rate down despite high rates of firearm ownership; fact is, people are happier to be alive there, plain and simple. It's easier to be sane if you're content.
You’ve hit the nail on the head . My friend
It’s a place of contentment . calming .
You’ve hit the nail on the head . My friend
It’s a place of contentment . calming .
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
I've already given my opinion on this subject many times over the years. And it along with abortion is one of the two things I really really hate to discuss because my opinions tends to piss both sides off.
I used to be very pro gun. And I still don't believe in principle that everyone should be disarmed. And not to get all feminist here, but I just can't accept that a woman with no history of violence shouldn't be allowed to defend herself if she chooses too because a bunch of (almost entirely male) people keep shooting innocent people.
It just doesn't seem right to me. That said though, I don't believe in the 2nd amendment anymore. I don't believe people should have an absolute right to own guns. I believe that the evidence shows that the best solution is to have people focused gun control. Not gun focused gun control.
In other words, if it were up to me, and assuming we live in a world where the 2nd amendment has been changed (and world peace has been achieved since this is clearly a fantasy). I would institute a strict licensing system.
If you've never committed a violent crime. If you undertake safety training (and ccw training if you want to carry), and a shrink signs off on it. You can own a gun. Any gun. You gotta renew the license every 10 years. But otherwise you can own any small arms you like, however many you like.
Will that solve everything? Of course not. Criminals will always have guns. But I believe it will cut down almost all the mass shootings without having to entirely disarm the populace. And I think it's a good compromise between the two extreme approaches.
Will it reduce the murder rate? I highly doubt it since I've never been able to find any evidence that any gun control anywhere will do that. But if you wanna stop mass shootings. It should work.
I used to be very pro gun. And I still don't believe in principle that everyone should be disarmed. And not to get all feminist here, but I just can't accept that a woman with no history of violence shouldn't be allowed to defend herself if she chooses too because a bunch of (almost entirely male) people keep shooting innocent people.
It just doesn't seem right to me. That said though, I don't believe in the 2nd amendment anymore. I don't believe people should have an absolute right to own guns. I believe that the evidence shows that the best solution is to have people focused gun control. Not gun focused gun control.
In other words, if it were up to me, and assuming we live in a world where the 2nd amendment has been changed (and world peace has been achieved since this is clearly a fantasy). I would institute a strict licensing system.
If you've never committed a violent crime. If you undertake safety training (and ccw training if you want to carry), and a shrink signs off on it. You can own a gun. Any gun. You gotta renew the license every 10 years. But otherwise you can own any small arms you like, however many you like.
Will that solve everything? Of course not. Criminals will always have guns. But I believe it will cut down almost all the mass shootings without having to entirely disarm the populace. And I think it's a good compromise between the two extreme approaches.
Will it reduce the murder rate? I highly doubt it since I've never been able to find any evidence that any gun control anywhere will do that. But if you wanna stop mass shootings. It should work.
Cream Gravy?
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I agree with a lot of what you're suggesting Jess, but shrinks are not good at reading people necessarily. I doubt that I would pass psychological screening in this vision of a perfect future you have, and yet I do not see myself as dangerous to myself nor others.
When I talk to psychiatrists/psychologists/doctors, I lie more than I do with almost anyone else. I don't trust them because of the natural human nature of assumptions. Oh, you use drugs? You must be abusing them and an addict then. Oh, you thought about suicide ten years ago? You're a major danger to yourself even though a lot has transpired in the decade since then. Etc.
I mean, FFS, the background check form you fill out to buy a gun is already biased like that; it asks if you've ever used an illicit substance and if you answer yes, they don't even bother running a check, you're just automatically blacklisted. Now, no smart individual would ever admit to illicit use if they wanted a firearm, but none the less, these biases are already in place and have no grounding in reality.
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
Well I'm not talking about the shrink having total authority to determine on their own initiative if you should have a gun or not.
For one, at the very least you'd have a right of appeal. If a shrink says no, you can see another one. Only if say, 3 agree that you are a danger to people do you get denied.
It's still not perfect, but it does mean that anyone wanting a gun with mental illness has to interact with the mental health care system first. Just doing that much might be worth while in its own right.
Cream Gravy?
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Perhaps so.
I just have a great mistrust of psychiatric science/practitioners. I've been to a lot of shrinks in my time, and I think one out of maybe 20-ish people was reasonable to talk to and I felt comfortable with. The rest I would lie to because they would automatically write me off with disorders I did not have.
Like, hell, I went to the hospital for abdominal pain last year, and they were asking me about my pain levels, and I said, "It hurts so much I wish I was dead," which they took as "HE'S SUICIDAL!!!!" and I was like no, I just want the pain to stop, and if it won't stop, I'd rather be dead.
What you describe is UK gun laws
Handguns are banned you can get a rifle for target shooting but every year it gets harder
So first you need a police visit they will only issue a “pink slip” if your house is in a area where burglary are low .
You then need a top spec alarm system and from this year .
where I think it’s gone wayyyy to far is
Years ago the police would request a letter from your GP asking is this person non violent and of sound mind NOW they ask will you vouch for this person and a lot of GP are refusing this request. Which mean no pink slip ( firearm certificate ) ...... there making it harder and harder virtually impossible to get a license
Handguns are banned you can get a rifle for target shooting but every year it gets harder
So first you need a police visit they will only issue a “pink slip” if your house is in a area where burglary are low .
You then need a top spec alarm system and from this year .
where I think it’s gone wayyyy to far is
Years ago the police would request a letter from your GP asking is this person non violent and of sound mind NOW they ask will you vouch for this person and a lot of GP are refusing this request. Which mean no pink slip ( firearm certificate ) ...... there making it harder and harder virtually impossible to get a license
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
Honestly, I don't trust them either. I agree with a lot of your sentiments.
It might be something that would take some experimenting to nail down. It isn't a locked in place part of my opinion. I'm just talking about some kind of third party with some kind of process to try and filter out some of the more obviously dangerous people.
The specifics could take a bit of trial and error to work out.
It might be something that would take some experimenting to nail down. It isn't a locked in place part of my opinion. I'm just talking about some kind of third party with some kind of process to try and filter out some of the more obviously dangerous people.
The specifics could take a bit of trial and error to work out.
Cream Gravy?
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See that's just fucked up; I sometimes think the UK is far closer to the reality of 1984 than the US is. CCTV everywhere, no one is allowed to own a firearm, if you admit to abusing BZDs even once you're blacklisted and treated as an addict, etc.
Sometimes, just sometimes... I'm proud to be 'Merican.
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
No I'm not talking about what the UK has. For one as I said, in my system, once you have a license you can have pretty much whatever guns you want.
And if I were to have any storage requirements, they wouldn't be that strict because part of my system is that having guns for self defense is a valid reason.
This is an idealized hypothetical. It assumes that it won't be misused to make getting a license impossible.