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Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2018 Thread

I'd like to suggest that the number of people affected by a shooting is greater than the number actually killed.

It's greater than the number and severity of all medical casualties.

It's even greater than the number of those directly affected, such as witnesses and loved ones.

Obviously it's the worst outcome, but being killed is not the only negative impact that these shootings have.

I completely agree, but even when you add it all up, it's still fairly small relative to a population of 300 million. Even using my first result search on how many people die in mass shootings every year in the US, which is almost certainly inflated because they always inflate the numbers for these sorts of things, even then over a hundred times more people die in car accidents every year. And they all had families and injured victims and witnesses traumatized as well.

My point here more than anything else, is that sadly, if it saves even one life, no actually it probably isn't automatically worth it. Because that justification fast spreads out control and seems very selective about what it targets. Tending towards societies controversies and ignoring other causes of death that cost far more lives.

Like everything with these subjects, using emotion over reason only makes things worse.
 
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Are you guys familiar with what is happening in the UK?

They banned guns completely so people went to knives, they banned knives now people are using screw drivers. There was a mass knifing spree that killed like 17 ppl recently. They have to have a license to own knives. A guy killed a burgler with a screwdriver and now he?s facing a murder sentence.

Beside the government killing us all without guns, just look at the absoulete monstrasity that Britain is
 
Are you guys familiar with what is happening in the UK?

They banned guns completely so people went to knives, they banned knives now people are using screw drivers. There was a mass knifing spree that killed like 17 ppl recently. They have to have a license to own knives. A guy killed a burgler with a screwdriver and now he?s facing a murder sentence.

Beside the government killing us all without guns, just look at the absoulete monstrasity that Britain is

Plus the car and acid attacks...
 
Maybe we should ban bridges because some people jump off them. :|

major decisions should always be decided with cost vs benefit taken into consideration. if you can't rationally and objectively do that kind of analysis then you aren't suitable to make that decision. in the case of guns, its pretty clear that the cost of allowing everyone unrestricted access to all kinds of firearms far outweighs the benefits. bringing up red herrings about knives and bridges doesn't change this, hollow attempts to prevent a discussion from ever occurring are obvious for what they are.
 
Are you guys familiar with what is happening in the UK?

They banned guns completely so people went to knives, they banned knives now people are using screw drivers. There was a mass knifing spree that killed like 17 ppl recently. They have to have a license to own knives. A guy killed a burgler with a screwdriver and now he?s facing a murder sentence.

Beside the government killing us all without guns, just look at the absoulete monstrasity that Britain is

was it this? it's a US incident...

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/79867149-157.html
 
Probably some censorship on part of the media. But the 8 killed in March I seen that @invegauser.

Isn?t that amazing with stats that there are more knife incidents in the UK in one year (a country that is significantly smaller than us) than there are gun incidents in America.

Not only can u not argue about banning guns because SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED is on paper. But places without guns become infestation of crime like UK, Australia,

Without saying a certain types of ppl are flooding and causing the crime rate to go up significantly in UK the point is proven that criminals will break the law.

The thread should end on my comment alone.
 
Are you guys familiar with what is happening in the UK?

They banned guns completely so people went to knives, they banned knives now people are using screw drivers. There was a mass knifing spree that killed like 17 ppl recently. They have to have a license to own knives. A guy killed a burgler with a screwdriver and now he?s facing a murder sentence.

Beside the government killing us all without guns, just look at the absoulete monstrasity that Britain is

There was no knifing spree, though because homicide rates are so comparatively low in the UK, the recent uptick of gang-related gun and knife violence in London is getting considerable media traction.

Guns were banned in various stages off and on from 1594 until the Vagrancy act of 1824 and Pistols Act of 1903 properly introduced controls and restrictions. Not all guns are banned though - shotguns for example.

And it's not like guns were suddenly banned and people turned to knives in swathes, as even knife crime isn't 'high'. People happen (likely for socio-cultural and economic reasons) to be five times less homicidal in the UK than the US. Not sure how that makes the UK a monstrosity but I guess ymmv.
 
@ Undiminished. Ah yes censorship.

In truth, you totally invented this UK massacre.

Now you get to demonstrate how crime infested Australia is. Come on, I'm waiting.
 
Probably some censorship on part of the media.
or maybe it never happened...

Isn?t that amazing with stats that there are more knife incidents in the UK in one year (a country that is significantly smaller than us) than there are gun incidents in America.
what on earth are you talking about?

invegauser's met. office stat. claimed 37443 knife incidents in the uk in 2017 through september. in the u.s. in 2017, the gun violence archive reported over 60000 gun related incidents in the u.s. though it's not clear to me what exactly those figures count.

...become infestation of crime like UK, Australia,
this is ridiculous hyperbole. the violent crime rate in the u.s .is higher than both the u.k. and australia (source: nationmaster). thought nonsense like the article deunked here doesn't help: Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does

The thread should end on my comment alone.
not really.

alasdair
 
@ Undiminished. Ah yes censorship.

In truth, you totally invented this UK massacre.

Now you get to demonstrate how crime infested Australia is. Come on, I'm waiting.

This bogan chick chucked a beer bottle out of the unregistered hoon car she fanged past in midland. Had a bald tyre and a broken headlight too.


No one got shot at tho. How awfully disappointing.
 
Seriously, Australians make me laugh when they talk about how happy they are there aren't any guns. Cause I've seen criminals armed to the teeth.


Thats good then! Good to hear if teh lulz provided.

Australians not having any guns is just as accurate as All Americans having machine guns.

At least we had the balls to address the gun issue and it worked.
 
zephyr: balls is not an accurate word i believe. i know i'm american and i live where we have guns (yet don't own one) but that aside... running away from something (guns) is much like why the immigrants flock here. but that your country made the attempt and makes it work for them i like and respect.

I never (ever) say nice things about australia's federal conservative party (called the liberal party, just to be confusing) - but i think the "balls" to ban guns was theirs, really.
I strongly dislike almost everything about that political party, but i do appreciate and support the 1996 gun reforms.

When the Port Arthur massacre took place in April of 1996 (coming up to 22 years ago) australians were deeply horrified by the violence, the bloodshed, the absolute brutality of it.
The killer killed tourists, old people, young families with little children.

In terms of the trauma of that day, and national mourning and horror that came out of it, there were a lot of discussions about guns.
I remember it quite clearly, and i was at school at the time. I remember the teachers called an assembly for everyone in my year, to talk it over with us and help the kids discuss and ask questions and stuff.

The social and political impact of that massacre was enormous - one of those traumatic events that you look back on as a turning point, or a loss of innocence. Comparable to 9/11 or the assassination of JFK or something - not quite as threatening to national security or whatever - but people were horrified by the whole thing, and i think a lot of people wanted to see some kind of action taken to stop this happening again.

One thing i remember people saying a lot at the time was that nobody in a civilian situation in our country needed the sort of firearms the killer used - a sentiment that was expressed across the political divide.

We don't have a historic attachment to guns, as a nation, in the way statesiders do.
That's largely to do with our history, and (to be perfectly frank) i'm thankful for that, because it means we (as a nation) were actually able to make a pragmatic decision to put strict regulations on gun ownership, with the intention of reducing the amount of guns in the community.

I also think we are fortunate to have not become desensitised to violence in the same way i think american people sometimes are (by comparison).
Guns are a big part of american culture, so it feels futile to even mention what happened with the gun thing here - but the point i am trying to make is that the government did the brave thing in having a gun amnesty and stricter laws - but what (a majority) of australians did was support the changes.
Obviously not everyone, but we're fortunate (in my opinion) not to have deep cultural and ideological attachments to firearms, which enabled the debate the legislation - and the ideas behind it - on its merits.

The myths about "good guys with guns" or protection from "government tyranny", or any wacky ideas about protecting your family from the police's guns, or any of that stuff.
And for the most part, aussies aren't so obsessed with the idea of "rights" - our national myths and ideologies are quite often based around egalitarianism, not battle or heroic individualism.
Perhaps it's got something to do with the way this colony developed into the country it has become, and that (apart from the seldom mentioned "frontier wars" - ie the colonial genocide of indigenous australians) we've never had a proper war here.

A bombing or two in WWII by the japanese, but we've largely avoided violent revolutions, never seen a coup d'?tat or a civil war.
So guns are (culturally) something you see on the farm, in australia. Yes there are hunters and various recreational shooters, but largely i'd say we're a pretty civil bunch.

I don't think our gun laws are perfect - really, no laws are perfect.

But i think they addressed a deep concern that fucked up people could slaughter scores of innocent people for no reason, if they had access to powerful modern weapons.

As we see, in news from the states, is that this is absolutely true.

I don't love australia, nor do i mention this stuff to gloat, to lecture or to act like we have worked out the solution to gun violence, and suggest that every country should do what we did over here.
But i'm comforted by the scarcity of guns here.

And i think there are a couple of important points that always get glossed-over.

Zephyr mentioned one of them above - the police response.
How many unarmed people have US cops killed in recent years? It seems like a lot.
It's obvious that their trigger-happy nature is related to jumpiness that everyone is about to shoot them.
The proliferation of guns has escalated the issue of police brutality (which is likewise an issue here - and probably everywhere).

Police in the state i live in used to have a terrible reputation for shooting people back in the 90s.
Now they just have a bad reputation for bashing, tasering and pepper-spraying people.
That's not nice either, but it's better than them killing people.

And the other point is suicide. I've read statistics (i can't remember where, but can locate if people don't believe me) that gun owners have a far higher incidence of suicide than non-gun owners.

I think that is one of the differences between killing with a gun, and killing with a knife or some other weapon.
Using a gun, it's the action, of pulling the trigger.
The person firing it is detached, it's like pushing a button.

A knife - or other weapon - by contrast, requires a physically violent act to do the killing.
in terms of the physical act, and what it requires of the person doing it, killing by striking, or stabbing or some other forceful movement is a very different commitment.
And that goes for both homicide and suicide.

I really hope the US calms down in terms of the frequency of killing sprees and gun violence more generally.
It's not an easy question, but i think it's important for people to listen to one another - but also look further afield for a change.

The american gun problem is uniquely american - so i'd suggest that there may be some strategies that work in non-US countries that are worth looking at and considering - and no, i don't just mean Australia.

To me, the vitriol that i've seen aimed at the kids that survived the florida school shooting, sums up the madness of the whole debate. I appreciate that i'm just an outsider looking in, but i think some of america's problems are based around how insular, inward-looking and self absorbed the united states can be.
It would be nice if things like the internet (and the ease of global communication that technology has created) could help "open up" america to broader horizons and different ways of thinking, but it seems like that's wishful thinking on my part.

It's a complicated issue and a pretty depressing debate, especially where the vitriolic nihilism of the trump era partisans is concerned.
Pragmatic reform for sensible gun laws is something that needs political leadership and popular community support - that's something australians were lucky to have when the issue came up, but it's something the USA sorely lacks (on both fronts) - especially at the moment.
 
Thats good then! Good to hear if teh lulz provided.

Australians not having any guns is just as accurate as All Americans having machine guns.

At least we had the balls to address the gun issue and it worked.

Well that depends on what you define the goal to be. It only worked if the gun control succeeded at its intended purpose. If its intended purpose was to prevent or substantially reduce the likelyhood of another port author, then yes, it worked. I don't agree that it's worth it for that for reasons I've already gone into, but I agree the evidence suggests it's now spree shootings are far less likely and that's because of 1996. It's a little hard to tell given the low population, but as far as these things can be determined, it appears to be true.

If by it worked, you mean you're less likely to be shot to death, then I suppose strictly speaking it worked in that sense too. If by "it worked" you mean you're less likely to actually die in a crime or be the victim of a crime, then it was an abysmal failure. And that means that on the front where it would have potentially had the most beneficial effect, it was a failure.

But sure, if you're the type that thinks it's worth sacrificing any and all freedom if it saves even a single life, or you're the type that thinks how likely you are to be victim of a crime or be murdered doesn't matter so long as its not done with a gun. Then yes, you're right, it worked. I don't agree, but I can't deny the evidence.

Speaking of evidence, I just wanna add that the suggestion that Australia and the UK are crime ridden relative to the US is laughable. I mean, the US crime and murder rates aren't quite as simple and as high on average as a lot of people imagine, but there's no question they're higher on any measure as a national average than the UK or Australia.
 
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