like the freedom to express - even petition for or work towards - a vision of america that looks different to yours?
why is the answer so often "if you don't like it, leave?" it's their america too.
ala
Mass Shooting and Gun Control Megathread
- Thread starter Jabberwocky
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like the freedom to express - even petition for or work towards - a vision of america that looks different to yours?
why is the answer so often "if you don't like it, leave?" it's their america too.
ala
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
I do think all of the freedoms are important. I just have never met anyone who isn't a felon who has had their guns taken away from them. Have you? On the other hand, I know people who have been affected by the abortion laws. It just seems like a bogeyman to me, a very effective bogeyman. Because obviously I know you're not "rah rah let's go Evangelism", I understand where you're coming from, but from my perspective, it's mission accomplished from the Repubs... they made another person feel absolutely sure that if they don't vote red, their guns are going to be taken away. And yeah I know some people who vote Democrat are all about taking away guns, but the idea that that will actually ever happen seems... extremely unlikely, to me. I don't even see any Democrats trying to suggest that guns should've taken from law abiding citizens, it's just a talking point that the Repubs like to repeat over... and over... and over again. Like when Obama got elected and the only thing my cousin could say to me when we talked was "Obama can come take my guns off my COLD, DEAD BODY". I was like... Obama isn't trying to take your guns, man.
I just don't see it.
I just don't see it.
indeed.
here's a pop quiz for you about 2 recent presidents...
potus #1 signed two laws related to guns. the first allowed gun owners to carry in national parks (and replaced a reagan-era policy requiring guns to be locked in the glove compartment or trunk in national parks).
the second allowed passengers on amtrak trains to carry guns in checked baggage (reversing a measure put in place post 9/11). so two laws, both of which expanded rights of gun owners.
potus #2 publicly floated the idea of taking citizens' guns without due process.
who are the two presidents here?
alasdair
here's a pop quiz for you about 2 recent presidents...
potus #1 signed two laws related to guns. the first allowed gun owners to carry in national parks (and replaced a reagan-era policy requiring guns to be locked in the glove compartment or trunk in national parks).
the second allowed passengers on amtrak trains to carry guns in checked baggage (reversing a measure put in place post 9/11). so two laws, both of which expanded rights of gun owners.
potus #2 publicly floated the idea of taking citizens' guns without due process.
who are the two presidents here?
alasdair
Cream Gravy?
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Beto O'Rourke has, and as such it began to feel personal to me in 2020 when he was campaigning and said that. He's been a massive failure of a politician but seeing him grab 43% of the vote this year was too close for comfort. It makes me feel like my fellow Texans care more about pseudo-social-justice than they do about rights. Not that Greg Abbot is any better in many regards... But yeah, the likelihood of confiscation? Not high. The likelihood of further bans though? Significant, considering they are happening and have happened before.
And at a national level, that was exactly what the Democrats tried to push through this summer. They were going to literally ban every firearm I own save for my revolver, in the name of saving... what? Lives? They certainly don't care about that. There's something entirely sinister behind it when any government pushes for the elimination of the right to bear arms. I'm 100% certain of that. It reeks of desperate authoritarianism. And those laws all passed the Democratic majority house... so I shudder to think what an un-filibustered senate would have done. 2022 might have been the last year of America existing as a nation had they pushed that through... busting the filibuster then taking away most firearms? Nuh uh. It makes me sick to think about it. What's next, knocking out the first amendment? Why not the 13th, 14th and 15th while we're at it?
Yeah that's fair. I mean it's a brilliant campaign tactic. And it only works because of Beto and his ilk. I see them as a smear on a once great party. Turncoats. Unamerican. They would have been British sympathizers during the revolution.
If anyone's version of America has restricted rights, then it's certainly not mine. The very idea of America is about individual liberties, and as such if someone's vision of America is about restrictions and conformity, then hell yes they need to leave. They don't want to be American, put simply. Be that people who think any drugs should be illegal, or people who think abortion should be illegal, or people who think the right to bear arms isn't a right. They aren't American and in my book they should leave, so conflict can be averted.
Aside from trying to answer y'all's Q's, I'm really just stating these things rhetorically and not directly at you two. I'm very concerned about the future of our nation, be that election denialism, the banning of cigarettes and vapes, the collapsing social net we have, further drug restrictions, further firearm restrictions, further reproductive health restrictions. I mean I'm real freakin' worried. It's got me damned anxious. And the rest of the world is looking worse off, which I haven't been able to say since the early 2000s.
Cream Gravy?
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I'm guessing potus #1 was Obama. Maybe Biden somehow.
Potus #2 would probably be Trump. He's not really right leaning at all and everyone sane knows that. He's a dirtbag authoritarian just like Biden.
should individual citizens be allowed to own and use nuclear weapons?
should free speech allow a ceo to lie about their company's performance so they can artificially inflate the share price so they can sell at huge personal gain before the truth comes out and regular shareholders get hosed?
should abortion be legal right up to the 9th month of pregnancy?
you're correct. i posted that to add some nuance to xorkoth's comments about "the democrats will take your guns" scaremongering.
appreciate your comments man.
alasdair
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If only for the sake of the environment, no. I worry about the radiation from all the nuclear weapon tests of the 20th century.
No, I do believe that the government should take interest in protecting the Everyman from being hosed. I hope that’s something that continues to gain ground in the future.
I’m not sure. A more unreasonable version of myself might say yes but I know there’s no reason someone would wait that long to decide unless it was a medical necessity. I honestly don’t know when a life starts but I don’t think it’s till late in pregnancy, personally.
right. so you believe that each of those rights should be restricted.
it is yours. and others.
so the discussion is just about the degree.
alasdair
it is yours. and others.
so the discussion is just about the degree.
alasdair
Cream Gravy?
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Yes, I suppose as a technicality. I think there are certain things all humans can agree on such as murder is wrong, theft is wrong, you know, universal moral values that exist beyond both politics and religion. But where universal moral values cease to be universal, at that point the government needs to back off. So really all they should be doing is providing defense, infrastructure, social welfare to a degree, and enforcing the law in instances like attempted murder, etc. where one party is violating another's right to exist.
And I'm sure you'll be like, "Well don't the children who are gunned down have a right to exist?" And my answer would be yes, yes they do. And we should draw and quarter people who would kill children. Hang 'em up in the town square and let their festering bodies be evidence of what happens to those who wrong the entirety of society. I'm not saying that children or whomever may be effected by violence don't deserve protection from said violence; I just have no earthly idea how a rational mind could conclude that the answer to that is, "Disarm everyone and let bodybuilders and jackbooted stormtroopers decide who lives and dies." I will never rely on the police state to protect me because even if every officer was a saint, they still can't teleport *blam!!!* into a bad situation and save people. You have to hope and pray that when you call 911, there will be at least one cruiser within' five minutes of your situation; and even then, five minutes is a long time when you're being assaulted or battered or robbed or raped. And I'm sorry, but that's just not good enough in my books.
So yeah, restrictions everyone on the face of the earth can agree on? Why not. Restrictions that a minority wants to force onto a majority in the name of religion or misguided social justice attempts? Well, we've seen how that went down in history, not pretty.
it's not a technicality. it's just a fact
i believe in restrictions to certain rights. many others believe in restrictions to certain rights. and you also believe in restrictions to certain rights.
we just disagree where the line is drawn.
that's a bit of an exaggeration
and those always tend to devalue the argument a little.right. your books.
again, i appreciate your comments amigo. thanks.
alasdair
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Yeah, a bit. I can see a future where that would be the case though, and it frightens me.that's a bit of an exaggeration
I don't think that protecting one's self should be determined by who took the most Jiu Jitsu classes or spent the most time at the gym. Or is male instead of female. Or is young instead of elderly. The weak and the meek have the right to exist unharmed and that's a lot of why I feel strongly about 2A rights.
Electrum1
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somnilicious
Bluelighter
Horrible.... Absolutely disgusting that someone would open fire on a room of innocent people for what I assume was a lifestyle you don't agree with.
It also might be a crime of passion; i.e. someone who was jilted or rejected and the shooter just went wild. I try not to jump at conclusions and prefer to wait for info to flow in before making assumptions. Its a sad loss of life whatever the reason.
Inthebetween
Bluelighter
Shall not be infringed. What is so gd difficult about that?!
Take away one constitutional right and the rest will follow in short order.
How about focusing on mental health rather than stripping Americans of their rights?
Take away one constitutional right and the rest will follow in short order.
How about focusing on mental health rather than stripping Americans of their rights?
it's complex because it depends on the definition of infringed for a specific action.
e.g. 2016 trump presidency thread (post #57)
which of your constitutional rights has been taken away?
alasdair
F.U.B.A.R.
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somnilicious
Bluelighter
True.... I just read that he had multiple guns and since so many people got shot at a gay club it seemed premotivated. There just seemed to be planning and it would have been some wide targeted passion. You're right though. I shouldn't assume.
Cream Gravy?
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That would be a first though; someone going on a shooting spree over a gay lover. Usually these kids are just depressed crazy people who show signs left and right of what they plan to do.
You'd think if it was indeed a crime of passion that they would've just killed their lover or themselves.
You'd think if it was indeed a crime of passion that they would've just killed their lover or themselves.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
My frst thought was some dude decided it was time to kill a bunch of gays. Whether because of really bad homophobia, or religious zealotry, or crossing the wires with some idea of trans=evil (obviously gay and trans are totally different). But I have absolutely no idea, just saying that's the first place my mind went.