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Mass Delusion

Medatripper Tates said:
you are misunderstanding -

In the thought plane, or the plane of mindtinctured Buddhi, man's thought is objective to the world of that plane.
Woah there pahdnah! Since when are we accepting the notion of 'planes' as some sort of 'natural' phenomenon? It is a notion of Mind, in which exist all 'planes'. Man is a unique perspective, and as such, every concept/notion/etc... is absolutely subjective (on that level).

That is why people think everything in objective terms,
Nope, the thought in YOUR brain is the very definition of subjectivity, all keyed into your memories of experiences, programming, etc...

even about experience. In the process of thinking, there should be the thinker, thinking and the object of thought.
"Should be"?? Odd words, considering the source.
That seems like a rather spurious and arbitrary trichotomy.
The 'thinker' is different from the 'thought'??? Really? The 'thinker' is not an 'object ot thought'?...

Sorry, I can't respond to the rest of the Patanjali quote at the moment. No sleep.
Ordinarily I like what he says, but 'perspective' truly is everything. And 'perspective' is the definition of subjectivity!
*__-
 
The_Idler said:
I have just one belief,
a reality outside my mind.

without it, I'd go insane,
but deep down, i know i'm just pretending.
Awwwww! I thought there actually might be another one without beliefs.
Anyway, people with no beliefs are dangerous, so, just as well, I guess! *__-
 
namelesss said:
Hahahaha! Really?No, I 'identify' with nothing (but Consciousness).
I entertain no 'beliefs'.

you just projected a belief. if you didn't have any beliefs you wouldn't be saying that. i suggest you look at the definition of belief and try to notice the hypocrisy in your words.
 
Medatripper Tates said:
you just projected a belief. if you didn't have any beliefs you wouldn't be saying that. i suggest you look at the definition of belief and try to notice the hypocrisy in your words.

if one has no beliefs, one cannot say that one has no beliefs?
 
The_Idler said:
Just act like what works most simply is real.

Reality is irrelevant,

logic dictates we act as if the most probable scenario is the case.

belief, ins any form, is blind idiocy.

That includes believing one "knows" ANYTHING, like "God exists" or "If i let this go, it will fall" or "particles are particles".

if things have always fallen when one released them,
then they will probably continue to fall,
so it is logical to act as if they will continue to fall.
do not believe for one second that they actually will.

all of that is a belief, everything that is said here is a form of belief. you accept your words as true, that is belief. if you accepted them as false you wouldn't be saying them.
 
The_Idler said:
if one has no beliefs, one cannot say that one has no beliefs?

no you misunderstood. he accepts the truth of his words, that he has no beliefs and he identifies with nothing but consciousness. he seems fairly confident that what he is saying is true... and that is the definition of belief.
 
Medatripper Tates said:
all of that is a belief, everything that is said here is a form of belief. you accept your words as true, that is belief. if you accepted them as false you wouldn't be saying them.
ok, just imagine "probably" appended to every clause I write.

because it is all probably true, so i act as if it is true,
because that is the most logical thing to do.
if logic exists, it is (by definition) perfect, and logic probably exists,
so i follow logic and assume the truth of the probable.
i do not believe any of it is actually true,
because i KNOW it might not be.

i KNOW everything i do and think MIGHT be based upon falsehoods,
but theyre logically probably not.
 
and that is your opinion. an opinion is a belief. even scientists who know all the evidential facts are opinionated and filled with belief about the world and existence.
 
a subjectively logical conclusion is nothing like a belief, OR an opinion.

it is a subjectively logical conclusion.
generally determining probability, to some degree,
to allow further action, based upon what is determined to be logically, probably most suitable.
 
be·lief (b-lf)
n.
1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: "My belief in you is as strong as ever."
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: "His explanation of what happened defies belief."
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.


I have no acceptance of, or trust, confidence or conviction in, the truth, actuality, validity of anything i have proposed.

Subjectively, I have logically determined it to probably be the case, and so I shall act as if it is so, while always acknowledging the possibility that it is not.
This is not belief.
 
The_Idler said:
Hey- I'm with you on this one,
I KNOW only that I KNOW nothing,
but that fact is actually a little scary.


Nice Socrates quote :)
It's getting quite heated in here!

I think the nub here is what one defines as belief. The Idler has a point in clarifying SOcrates' motto, he never said he knew nothing
but rather 'There is only one thing that I know, and that is that I know nothing', just as Descartes after him he was clued-up enough
to realise to build a system of knowledge, a single axiomatic truth is required. Even Descartes solipsist's argument, lead him to the one
thing he felt he could hold as true, that one exists (cogito ergo sum). I agree with the Idler that acting as if reality consist of more than
oneself, and a malicious demon provides more comfort, but is not by neccessity the truth.
 
The truth is out there... NOT!

this guy explains it well -


When two or more people share the same opinion about data, we have a fact - at least for those sharing the opinion. (Many consider singular, subjective experiences to be facts, as well.)

All facts are opinions, but all opinions are not facts. Say, for example, you and your friend are driving through the mountains at dusk. Up ahead, you see a big man wearing a thick winter coat. As you get closer, however, you realize that it is a bear, not a man.

The most important aspect of facts, though, is that they are always relative. Here are several reasons.

First, linear minds formulate facts. Minds use language - strings of symbols - to think. This distances facts from reality by at least one level, because symbols are pictures of reality.We also can mistake symbols for facts. For instance, many believe "governments" exist. They exist, however, only in our minds. What we call a government is no more than people with titles, usually working or living) in large buildings - it's only people. The same applies to all churches, institutions, agencies, bureaus, and orders.
Second, facts are relative to temporal, spatial, species, size, distance, and dimensional considerations. Here are some examples:
Temporal: Today, we look at what we call a chair. We nod and mumble, "This is a chair." Last year, though, the chair was a tree. One year from now, maybe it will have transformed into ashes. (Moral: Most facts change over time.)
Spatial: My friend in Hollywood, Florida is looking up into the sky. From an Australian perspective, however, she's looking down into the sky. (Some facts change according to the position of the viewer.)
Species: To a human, mosquitoes are pests or parasites. To some birds though, they're lunch. (Many facts change according to what we are.)
Size: The "laws" of Newtonian physics don't apply to sub-atomic particles. (Size can determine reality parameters .)
Distance: The ancients believed that the stars were little pin pricks in the filament through which the light was shining. We know stars to be a zillion times bigger than ourselves, though they look small.
Dimension: In the third dimension, we can't travel faster than the speed of light. On the fifth dimension, we can. (Each dimension has its own reality base.)
Third, if we are to understand the Big Picture, we need more than our six senses to gather the information; there's a universe of data out there. Our vehicles (the mental, emotional, and physical bodies) filter more information than they allow in. For instance, our eyes can only perceive visible light - a small slice of the electro-magnetic spectrum. We can only hear a limited range of sound. To help collect more data, we have built instruments that extend the reach of our senses (like radio telescopes).
Yet, we must interpret data linearly. If we only needed to analyze data to reveal the Big Picture, then the world wouldn't be suffering so much. We live, however, in a non-linear universe that can behave linearly. Our minds can't fathom it, even if they had access to all data.
Fourth, each of our perceptual lenses - our emotional, mental, physical, astral, and spiritual bodies - has its own biases about reality. For instance, the physical body might find a certain relationship enjoyable. The emotional body may label the same relationship uncomfortable. What's true for one lens may be false for another.
Fifth, memory colors how we interpret data. Say, for example, your mother would slap you every time you asked for ice cream. This happened during the first twenty years of your life. As an adult, you'd find it difficult to deal objectively with that tasty treat. We can extend this concept of memory to include racial and specie memory, as well.
Lastly, our archetypal, cultural, educational, and religious backgrounds influence how we determine fact. Examples:
Archetypal: The Gemini archetype uses the mental-body filter to interpret data, while the Cancerian prefers the emotional.
Cultural: Some cultures believe that war-like behavior is commendable, other cultures suppress it.
Educational: A scientist might believe that a chair is mostly space, shaped by whizzing probability waves.
Religious: Some religions teach that the same chair doesn't exist at all.

An opinion is a symbolic view of reality. Some opinions cement ideas together more solidly - and, therefore, more convincingly - than others. The universe, however, allows an infinite number of opinions to co-exist simultaneously, even contradictory ones.

They lie on top of one another, like cards in a giant stack. All of us play from this universal deck.

Fritz Pearls, founder of Gestalt Therapy, said that we can divide opinions into three groups. He named them: 1. Chicken Shit (or, Small Talk - "Nice weather we're having."), 2. Bull Shit (or, Important Issues - "The merits of his proposal are valuable. The way that I see it..."), and 3. Elephant Shit (or, Cosmic Concerns - "We can express the essence of God like..."). Mr. Pearls implies that whatever we say, we're just talking.

We can conclude that whatever anyone says about anything, is only an opinion. This applies to all teachers, saviors, gods, books, guru's, channeled entities, masters, experts, guides, therapists, philosophers, and leaders of any kind. They are sharing their opinions. Christ, for instance, had an opinion about How It Is. If you're a True Believer of his opinions, then you're a Christian.

In the past, most kings, pharaohs, and prophets claimed to be God incarnate. This status gave their words the weight of truth rather than mere opinion.
 
Alephnul said:
Nice Socrates quote :)
It's getting quite heated in here!

I think the nub here is what one defines as belief. The Idler has a point in clarifying SOcrates' motto, he never said he knew nothing

this thread is based on how much we know nothing. we go to school thinking we are gaining an understanding of existence, but this may be quite the opposite. we can observe the objective facts we have about the brain and mind, but does this give us much understanding of how they operate?

what i am saying here is that maybe all of this so called knowledge they feed us takes away from our understanding of ourselves and who we are behind our mental projections.
 
Those are two opinions about semantics.
They probably believe that stuff they're saying.
I do not, though I do acknowledge the possibility of its truth.
 
Medatripper Tates said:
we can observe the objective facts we have about the brain and mind, but does this give us much understanding of how they operate?


we know no objective facts.

objective reality may not exist.

learning the most simple explanation for the operations of the brain enables us to make predictions about probable outcomes in particular situations.
It doesn't make it true, or a fact.
many people may believe it,
but one does not have to believe it, to utilise its logically probable truth, in determining the most logically probably successful actions.
 
The_Idler said:
Those are two opinions about semantics.
They probably believe that stuff they're saying.
I do not, though I do acknowledge the possibility of its truth.

we all have opinions. if you disagree than we might as well just agree to disagree.
 
Medatripper Tates said:
we all have opinions. if you disagree than we might as well just agree to disagree.

I have logically concluded that most people probably have opinions.
however, after all the subjective experience i have ever had, i have concluded that i probably do not.

and what evidence do you have to suggest that i, personally, MUST have opinions?
 
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