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MAOIs to enhance recreational drugs?

L

LMM

Ex-Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
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I know that it's a big risk to do drugs while on MAOIs, but I assume this is considering a normal dose. If you took into account the MAOI when considering dosing, could MAOIs be used to greatly enhance recreational drugs? For example:

If you were on a mild to moderate MAOI for type A and B, could you take a quarter or half tab of E and have a great roll which won't really end up depleting your serotonin? So you could just take a bit of E whenever you wanted a boost, and you would both constantly be able to have a great roll, would not have any comedown/crash, and would probably not sustain much or any of the neurotoxicity due to 1. Not having the post-E serotonin dip in the first place and 2. Having much less oxidative stress even if there were a dip, because of less MAO-B oxidizing dopamine inside serotonin storage?

So if someone wanted to do this with say 4-mar or meth (to enhance effects, stop comedowns/crashes and allow you to get as high as you want whenever you want) I would think smoking would be safest, as you know how high you're getting pretty much right away and IVing is kind of a pain in this ass. Would it be relatively safe to start off on a lowish dose of some sort of MAOI, and take a hit, wait 5-10 minutes to see if it hits you, and continue like this until you are high?

Discuss.
 
It's nice idea in theory but... Not with MDMA. For the serotonergenic psychedelics, sure - VERY CAREFULLY.

As well as the very significant MAOI dangers (look them up if you're unfamilliar!), you will have to take into account th effect of the MAOI in potentiating the effects of your chosen psychedelic.

Also, since most people here will be using the realtively unstudied Harmala alkaloids, the degree of MAO inhibition you're going to get is pretty uncertain.
If you're using harmala, order lots of it so when you use it it's out of the same "batch" (if you will) and so will be a similar strength per gram consumed. This way you can build up the doses till you find a comfortable and safe level.
 
Thanks for the responses everyone. What about in combination with meth/4-mar? The advantage I see to that over MDMA is that it could be smoked a bit at a time, with a while in between to judge the effects. Is it possible to freebase MDMA? I would assume so, and as long as the MAOIs have a steady consistant effect, I think if you smoked a little bit of whatever you're using at a time until you got high and were very careful, wouldn't it be pretty safe? As opposed to just taking an oral dose and hoping you don't die ;) .
 
Jason:

Meperidine and other synthetic opiates are strongly contraindicated with MAOis, since they are known to produce a toxic reaction (like serotonin syndrome, I believe). I'm not sure why this is, though.

"Classic" opiates seem to also have some kind of additive effect with MAOIs, though I'm not sure if this is an actual synergy or just experiencing both at the same time. I personally have always found opiates a bit more enjoyable with MAOIs than without, though I do not partake in MAOIs often (in fact, before starting my current selegiline course, I only took Harmala a handful of timex).

I do not believe MAOIs and benzos have any interactions, nor have I personally ever noticed anything strange.
 
speaking from extensive and in retrospect foolhardy personal experience with selective MAOIs, i would seriously advise anyone looking at MAOIs as potentiators to reconsider, unless you put no value on your health.

the potentiation is just one aspect, the entire modality of the original experience will be altered, most often there are significant physical side effects none of which are too pleasant.

do not screw around with MAOIs kids.
 
MAOI's and stimulants (pretty much anything phenethylamine) is a big no-no, think hypertensive crisis and serotonin syndrome, look em up if you've never heard of them.

Psychedelic tryptamines are the only things you should use MAOI's with, even many types of food are containdicated with them. You Should tread very carefully using MAOI's even in this way.

And as nanobrain says, they don't just make the experience stronger, they can alter the nature of the experience, especially things like syrian rue etc.
 
MAOIs have been used traditionally with PEA psychedelics - there are at least some reports of traditional ayahuasca brews that add mescaline containing cacti to the mix. Shulgin and Ott (I think) both report uses of mescaline with harmaline, at pretty cautious doses it has to be said.

You definately don't want to mix MDMA with strong MAO-A inhibitors (or strong non-selective inhibitors), nor would you want to mix dopaminergic drugs (meth, 4-mar, coke...) with MAO-B or non-selective inhibitors.

I would only suggest that someone with good knowledge of pharmacology and a good understanding of their own bodies chemistry attempt mixing MAOIs with any drugs, and only then in very, very cautious amounts in controlled settings. No offence, but from your first post you don't seem like you'd qualify...
 
yes I would stay the hell away from it if you are even asking. They are far too dangerous unless you have a lot of knowlege about them. If you did you wouldnt be asking. I have wondered the same thing but threw the idea out. And yes they interact strongly with lots of foods- cheese wine etc. lyceum has some info on the food interactions.
 
Actually I know quite a bit about what I'm talking about. I know that foods heavy in tyramine can displace norepinepherine and cause mania and hypertensive crisis. I know that a lot of tryptophan can lead to serotonin syndrome. I'm not stupid, I know about the risks that are involved with MAOI.

You don't think that taking tiny doses of the drug as well as tiny doses of the MAOI isn't careful? Or that taking one hit at a time and waiting to see if it hits you is me being reckless? The reason I posted is because I'd never just go and do this without heavy study and consideration and I was just interested in the possibility as they seem very promising pharmacologically. Please, don't think I'm fucking stupid because I'm suggesting a new idea that hasn't really been explored.
 
I dont know if your responce is to me but I think its is. I never called you stupid. You are taking this way to personal. My point is that people have messed with this and I personally think the risk outways any cost benifit or affect benifit. I was just telling you to be safe with this one so that you dont get hurt. There are alot of variables. Dont take it the wrong way.
 
Now this isn't a suggestion, but what would happen if you combined an MAOI with say methylphenidate (a NET/DAT inhibitor with almost no affinity for SERT), and also a low dose of a beta-blocker to counteract the hypertension?
 
hussness said:
Now this isn't a suggestion, but what would happen if you combined an MAOI with say methylphenidate (a NET/DAT inhibitor with almost no affinity for SERT), and also a low dose of a beta-blocker to counteract the hypertension?
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A beta-blocker! Good idea. :) Interesting indeed! Yea, methylphenidate isn't going to do much at all to serotonin levels. Hmmm.
 
I have read this on wiki and on erowid. If you take mdma (E) with maoi's then there is a high risk of a disorder or condition known as serotonin syndrome, which is excess serotonin in the brain. This might seem nice since it means more serotonin, meaning better high, right? NO!!! It doesnt give you btter trip on E because serotonin syndrome doesnt feel good at all. It could lead you to the ER. MASSIVE!!!! I STRESS THIS!!!! HEAD PAIN!!!!! LIKE YOUR GONNA DIE. It feels like hell, for some even as bad as heroin withdrwal.

If your are looking for an E or mdma comedown helper, or a trip smoother, meaning it is less rushy and intense, but rather more smooth and trippy, then you should take small doses of ssri's before the trip. For comedown help, right when you start coming down. NOT MAOI's.

Another thing for E or mdma comedown help is to take supplements found at vitamin shoppes and to take after you come down on the trip. These include 5-htp, Folic Acid, SAM-e, omega 3 fatty acids, and st. johns wort supplements. The best ones are 5-htp Sam-e and st johns wort in that order.

5-htp is the best because its what the body uses to make serotonin, or is the raw material for building serotonin. The body digests it and has tons of material to make serotonin.
 
Zubi420 said:
I have read this on wiki and on erowid. If you take mdma (E) with maoi's then there is a high risk of a disorder or condition known as serotonin syndrome, which is excess serotonin in the brain. This might seem nice since it means more serotonin, meaning better high, right? NO!!! It doesnt give you btter trip on E because serotonin syndrome doesnt feel good at all. It could lead you to the ER. MASSIVE!!!! I STRESS THIS!!!! HEAD PAIN!!!!! LIKE YOUR GONNA DIE. It feels like hell, for some even as bad as heroin withdrwal.

If your are looking for an E or mdma comedown helper, or a trip smoother, meaning it is less rushy and intense, but rather more smooth and trippy, then you should take small doses of ssri's before the trip. For comedown help, right when you start coming down. NOT MAOI's.

Another thing for E or mdma comedown help is to take supplements found at vitamin shoppes and to take after you come down on the trip. These include 5-htp, Folic Acid, SAM-e, omega 3 fatty acids, and st. johns wort supplements. The best ones are 5-htp Sam-e and st johns wort in that order.

5-htp is the best because its what the body uses to make serotonin, or is the raw material for building serotonin. The body digests it and has tons of material to make serotonin.
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Please don't treat me like an idiot. I have already mentioned serotonin syndrome, and as a matter of fact, I'm not stupid enough to think that is a good thing. I know about precursors and all that. I was simply suggesting it as a possibility.
 
LMM said:
Actually I know quite a bit about what I'm talking about. I know that foods heavy in tyramine can displace norepinepherine and cause mania and hypertensive crisis. I know that a lot of tryptophan can lead to serotonin syndrome. I'm not stupid, I know about the risks that are involved with MAOI.

You don't think that taking tiny doses of the drug as well as tiny doses of the MAOI isn't careful? Or that taking one hit at a time and waiting to see if it hits you is me being reckless? The reason I posted is because I'd never just go and do this without heavy study and consideration and I was just interested in the possibility as they seem very promising pharmacologically. Please, don't think I'm fucking stupid because I'm suggesting a new idea that hasn't really been explored.
Click to expand...

Serotonin syndrome is due to an excess of serotoninin the interneuronal space. Excess tryptophan can cause it, but the most common cause is the combination of drugs which block the removal of serotonin from the interneuronal space.

So when you said:
If you were on a mild to moderate MAOI for type A and B, could you take a quarter or half tab of E and have a great roll which won't really end up depleting your serotonin?
Click to expand...

Nope.. if you take a non-selective or MAO-A inhibitor with MDMA, the serotonin will be massively released, and then not broken down -> serotonin syndrome. It won't affect your comedown (if you survive) - the serotonin will all have been released from your neurons and (eventually) depleted. MDMA blocks the re-uptake too, so non will be re-uptaken into the cells.

So you could just take a bit of E whenever you wanted a boost, and you would both constantly be able to have a great roll, would not have any comedown/crash, and would probably not sustain much or any of the neurotoxicity due to 1. Not having the post-E serotonin dip in the first place and 2. Having much less oxidative stress even if there were a dip, because of less MAO-B oxidizing dopamine inside serotonin storage?
Click to expand...

Again, no. 1. There will still be a post-E serotonin dip as you have excreted a large amount of serotonin by taking MDMA, which has not been re-uptaken.
2. The theory of neurotoxicity caused by the uptake of dopamine into the serotonin neurons has been pretty much discarded - http://thedea.org/neurotoxicity.html#m you're half right though - l-deprynl (selective MAO-B inhibitor at low doses) provides neuroprotection - http://mdma.net/depsave.htm but I'm not sure what the suggested mechanism is now?

That's why I thought you might not really know what you were talking about... MDMA with any strong non-selective or MAO-A inhibitor is potentially fatal, and would provide non of the benefits you suggest. MAO-B inhibitors may provide some neuroprotection, but won't enhance the effects (or at least, the anecdotal evidence seems to be mixed at best).*

As for the meth/4-mar, I really have no idea...

*All this is simply my amateur understanding, if anyone wants to correct anything I've said which is incorrect, please do so. :)
 
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LMM, your repeated requests to not treat you like an idiot after no one has done so makes me question as to whether you should use any chemicals at all since your sense of reality and/or ego defenses seem askew.

if anyone is interested, just do a cross-search with my name and selegeline for all you may wish to know, there's volumes of info in the smart drug threads which i cannot repost now due to time constraints.

kids, please heed the warnings of your elders and DO NOT FUCK AROUND WITH MAOIS.
 
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