Many Research Chem Companys raided, Customer Lists Taken, Now What?

Mahan Atma

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The Legal Status of RESEARCH CHEMS in the U.S.

People frequently ask questions about the legality of unscheduled “research chemicals”, like those listed in Shulgin’s PiKHAL and TiKHAL books. Common examples are 5-meo-dmt, 2C-I, and so on. Most are phenethylamines or tryptamines. I will simply refer to them as “research chems” (RCs); although some people object to this term, it’s the simplest, most common term to use.

Here is the low-down on the legality of RCs in the U.S.:

Many RCs are not scheduled, meaning they are not explicitly listed in the schedules of illegal substances created by federal and state drug laws. Some people think this means they are legal. This is incorrect.

Under federal law, unscheduled RCs may be illegal to sell or possess with the intent to consume them. The federal statute is the Controlled Substance Analogue Enforcement Act of 1986, whose text is supplied here:

http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/law/law_fed_analog_act.shtml

Many states have an identical or similar statute. I will refer to these generally as “the analogue laws”.

Here is a simplified explanation of the analogue laws.(See the text of the given statute for the details). Under the analogue laws, an “analogue” is any unscheduled substance that fits all three of these criteria:

1) It has a chemical structure “substantially similar” to a controlled substance;

2) It has a similar stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect as a controlled substance;

3) It is intended by the defendant to have a similar stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect as a controlled substance.

Now, there are a couple of qualifications:

1) If you do not intend to consume the substance, then technically it is legal to possess it. HOWEVER, this does not mean that you don’t have to worry about being prosecuted for possessing an RC. A jury is allowed to infer intent based on indirect evidence. For example, if the cops find gel caps, a milligram scale, trip reports, or other such evidence, the judge or jury could infer that you intended to consume the drug. Although technically the burden is on the prosecution to prove intent, you may effectively be in the position of having to prove that you didn’t consume the drug. That could be very hard to do, given that the judge or jury will view you as a “drug user” and your credibility will be drawn into question.

2) The circumstances under which it is legal to distribute RCs are not totally clear, because it is not clear how the “intent to consume” element applies to the act of selling. If you sold an RC while telling people to consume it, or explaining to them how to consume it, you are most certainly guilty. If you sell an RC while telling people NOT to consume it, but knowing full well that they would, it is not clear whether you would be guilty. If past case law is any guide, a person would most likely be found guilty if they reasonably should have known that the person buying the drug intended to consume it. In any case, be aware that if you sell RCs, you are taking a big chance. Again, you will effectively be in the position of having to prove your innocence, because judges and juries generally do not like drug sellers.

3) The issue of whether a given RC has a chemical structure that is “substantially similar” to a scheduled substance is somewhat ambiguous. If you got busted, you could pay an expert witness like Shulgin to testify that the RC is NOT substantially similar to a scheduled substance. The prosecution will present their expert witness, who will say it IS substantially similar. Which side the judge or jury believes is up to them. Again, the burden may effectively be on you to prove your innocence, because judges and juries generally do not like drug users.

In essence, to be on the safe side, you should consider RCs to be just as illegal as any scheduled substance. Although your chances of getting prosecuted are lower than for scheduled substances, it can and does happen.

IMPORTANT: If you are busted with RCs, do NOT tell the police what the substance is. I have heard of cases where people got busted with an RC, and they told the police what the substance was, trying to explain that the substance was legal. This is a BIG MISTAKE. First of all, the police aren’t going to believe you when you claim it is legal. Second, you are making it easier for them to figure out what the substance is. THEREFORE DO NOT SAY ANYTHING AT ALL, AND SIMPLY ASK FOR A LAWYER.

There is a decent chance that the police will not know what the drug is, and will not go to great lengths to figure it out. They may do presumptive tests for cocaine, meth, heroin or other scheduled drugs, and when they realize it isn’t a scheduled substance, they may decide not to pursue charges. It takes money and resources to do something like MS/GC analysis, and they may not bother to go this far. Even then, they may not be able to figure out or prove what the drug is; they will have to bring in expert witnesses to testify about it, and so on.

SO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND FORCE THEM TO FIGURE IT OUT. You’re most likely not going to talk your way out of it, so don’t even try.
 
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Somebody in another forum asked, "If questioned, what should you tell the police about why you have the substance?"

The answer, of course is... NOTHING! At least not until you have a lawyer, and perhaps not after that either. Please read and follow the advice in this post:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114373&r=1

It stands in this situation as well as any.

Someone suggested that you tell the police that you use the substance for something like household cleaning. I strongly recommend against this. First of all, the chance that the cop believe you and lets you go is pretty much ZERO.

Second, by giving a reason that is easily shown to be a lie (because who in their right mind spends several hundred dollars per gram for a substance that does household cleaning), you are making a statement that can be used against you. It could actually be used to demonstrate your intent to consume, by allowing the judge or jury to infer that since you were lying, you must have been trying to cover up your true motives.

So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do NOT SAY ANTYHING when questioned by the police! Ask for a lawyer, shut your mouth, and let your lawyer do the talking, when you finally get one.
 
Thanks for writing that report.

Truthfully if I had not read it, and somehow I was busted with an RC on me, I 'might' try and talk my way out of it since I am alright with words (Yet in this case my mouth would not get me anywhere). Now I know to shut the hell up! :)
 
Yes, thanks for this great advice.

I might also suggest, if you are going to make a habit of dealing with illicit or illegal substances, that you at least have the name and number of a good (private) attorney on or near you at all times. Even better if you actually have/know an attorney. A public defender may, or may not, know what he/she is doing, and it is nice knowing you can call someone you can trust when you're in a jam. Their fee will be worth it.

I think it is also important to remember: this is the legal system, and there are, at least nominally, rules. You don't have to say anything to the police. This goes against your normal social inclination to respond to another person's questions, but you really don't have to. A good interrogator will sorely test your ability to remain silent. You can start by carrying a copy of the ACLU's What to do if you are stopped by the police wallet card and stick to it.
 
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Anyone know the legal status of research chems in the UK???
more specifically 5-meo-dmt???

thanks
 
I would think over time that in the USA, eventually investigators will look more and more into these research chem companies. Perhaps asking for a data file of everyone who has ordered : names, dates, addresses etc - easy to do if they ordered with a credit card. Then they could begin investigations into a person.

Does that seem to paranoid of a possibility? If so it would almost seem buying them off the street would be safer, since there is no paper trail leading back to a person.
 
^^^ Here are my predictions.

Federal prosecutors generally go after "big fish", not little guys. The distributors of these chemicals are much more liable to be prosecuted than the buyers are. A few buyers may get charged and flipped, but only to the extent necessary to build a case against the distributors.

As far as state prosecutions go, that's more uncertain. First, not all states have analogue statutes covering these substances. Among those that do, they face the logistical problem that suppliers may be out-of-state.

Are the buyers going to face increased prosecution in states that have analogue laws? I don't know, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

At the present time, the drug war has stopped ramping up in many states because of budget crises, so I think it's unlikely to happen anytime in the near future. Prosecutors and police have their hands full with meth and coke right now, and prosecuting small buyers of research chems is really not high on their list of priorities (that's assuming they even know about research chems, and most don't).

Remember, it takes more money and resources to prosecute a research chem case, because you've got to do extra testing, you've probably got to have an expert witness testify that it comes under the Analogue laws, and so on. It's much much easier to prosecute a meth case, and meth cases are much much higher on the radar screen right now.

In the long term future? Who knows, that's anybody's guess.
 
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Mahan Atma, you seem to be the expert on legal issues on this site. Please forgive me if I am breaking any rules. Is it legal to purchase nonscheduled research chemicals. Example, if you find a source for say 2c-i on the internet, is it legal to purchase. Also, if it is legal to purchase is it a bad idea to buy thru a internet source. I am not asking for a source. Just looking for your opinion.
 
drugzarebad said:
Mahan Atma, you seem to be the expert on legal issues on this site. Please forgive me if I am breaking any rules. Is it legal to purchase nonscheduled research chemicals. Example, if you find a source for say 2c-i on the internet, is it legal to purchase. Also, if it is legal to purchase is it a bad idea to buy thru a internet source. I am not asking for a source. Just looking for your opinion.

Technically, if you have no intent to consume the drug, then it is legal to purchase RCs. BUT -- see the caveats I set out above.

I can't tell you whether or not it is a bad idea to buy through internet sources. I don't know the extent to which law enforcement may be monitoring or investigating them. I do know it happens, however.
 
goddamn, another 2c-x(-x) thread

well to start things off i got into chems. a few months ago. i have only taken 2c-t-2. i have read everything there is on erowid about chems. and almost every thread i have seen on the net about them.

my question is...why is/are 2c-b, 2c-i, 2c-c, etc. always mentioned the most and t-2 and t-7 rarely mentioned? do you guys prefer these chems over t-2 t-7?

i plan on tryin I and B pretty soon. just a matter of money :p
 
The ones mentioned most in recent threads seem to be the ones still available from RC suppliers. Before T2 and T7 were scheduled, there was lots of discussion about them.
 
AfterGlow said:
Before T2 and T7 were scheduled, there was lots of discussion about them.

I don't think 2-c-t-2 is scheduled (at least not in the US).
 
Yup, as far as I know, only 2C-T-7 and 2C-B are scheduled in the US, of the 2C's.

Anyone happen to know the status of 2C-T-7 as far as being permanently scheduled? My understanding is it is still scheduled under DEA "emergency" scheduling authority, and this will expire, let's see, next month if my math is correct. (emergency scheduling lasts 18 months and 2C-T-7 was scheduled in Sept '02).

My guess is it will be permanently scheduled eventually, but there may be an interesting loophole period in which it becomes quasi-legal again -- or no?
 
Good call, victor. I don't know. I think they may try to reschedule it, but I doubt many RC suppliers would really go out of their way to get 2ct7 in the few months it's not specifically stated to be illegal. They're already in grey ground as it is.
 
Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, these are just some of my thoughts.

it'll probably be moved to schedule I.

I wonder if they will be able to move it into schedule I (they may or may not try to). I remember reading a legal defense... and they have a more indepth one on salvia somewhere but I couldn't find it right now.

there, found it.. over at the CCLE here or full version (PDF) here

And below is a is the the DEA's notice to schedule 2C-T-2

The Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984 (Pub. L. 98-473), which
was signed into law on October 12, 1984, amended section 201 of the
Controlled Substances Act (CSA) (21 U.S.C. 811) to give the Attorney
General the authority to temporarily place a substance into Schedule I
of the CSA for one year without regard to the requirements of 21 U.S.C.
811(b) if he finds that such action is necessary to avoid an imminent
hazard to the public safety. The Attorney General may extend the
temporary scheduling up to 6 months.

---

Ok, so, it goes on, but it does not mention being able to extend it again, so unless it was made a schedule I drug I would think it would be quasi-legal once again.

So, that brings me to the point of making it schedule I. IIRC, in order to schedule a drug they must prove a few different points, one of which is abuse. Here is the original 2C-T-7 alert, note the section on abuse.

My question is, aside from the obvious fact that the DEA equates use to abuse, is that can they even show use anymore? Has there been a single seizure of 2C-T-7 since it has been scheduled? Any hospital visits? My guess would be that most, if not all 2C-T-7 users have since switch to different, more easily available RC's. If this is the case I would think that legally there would be a good chance it couldn't get scheduled.

Now of course, none of this matters, because I doubt anyone is really defending us on these matters, thus they can do whatever they want. The CCLE has written some very solid legal replies (well, once again, I am not a lawyer), but they don't have the resources to do much more than that unfortunatly.

Anyways, I'm just thinking it may become legal again, until they are able to prove abuse=use again, until it came onto the market again at which point they could try to schedule it again.

[edited to fix 2c-t-2 into 2c-t-7 in a few places.. whoops]
 
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Diver777 said:
And below is a is the the DEA's notice to schedule 2C-T-2

I assume you mean 2C-T-7, rather than 2, here and throughout your post.

I have no idea how any of this would work. But you would seem to be right that if the DEA cares most about quantity of use, they would hardly be motivated to put more effort into 2C-T-7. But maybe all they need is one expert witness or two to testify that if unscheduled again it would lead to more deaths, etc. They key question is whether a permanent lapse in scheduling has ever been allowed to happen before -- I kind of doubt it.

I honestly have no idea. Maybe a friendly mod could move this over to Legal Q&A where it seems to be going?

:D
 
Re: goddamn, another 2c-x(-x) thread

Drkstr said:
well to start things off i got into chems. a few months ago. i have only taken 2c-t-2. i have read everything there is on erowid about chems. and almost every thread i have seen on the net about them.

my question is...why is/are 2c-b, 2c-i, 2c-c, etc. always mentioned the most and t-2 and t-7 rarely mentioned? do you guys prefer these chems over t-2 t-7?

i plan on tryin I and B pretty soon. just a matter of money :p

2C-T-7 is still my favorite member of the 2C family (that I've tried.) =D I doubt any of the 2Cs could ever take the place of 2C-T-7 in my heart. It used to be the exotic psychedelic that everyone talked about at Bluelight. Then it was made illegal in most countries. The overdosages associated with it gave it an (unfair in my view) bad name. But these were associated with taking too much, often unknown dosages, by insufflation.

The same thing happened to DOM in 1967 when pills containing 20mg (almost 7X an effective dosage) were distributed in G.G Park in San Fran. Those who got the pills were used to LSD (which hits you hard in a half hour when you take a full dosage) and many ended up dosing two or three more an hour later when they didn't feel much leading to many horrible (and long) bad trips. DOM takes a good four or five hours to peak! But I guess no one was told.

I would imagine 2C-I, 2C-C, etc are frequently mentioned because they are (sadly) way to easy for many to get a hold of. 2C-B has been (over)-rated by many as the "end all be all" of all the synthetic phenethylamines and everyone wants it because it so legendary. I'd say 2C-T-2 isn't mentioned much because it isn't very good, but that is just my personal opinion.
 
Re: Re: goddamn, another 2c-x(-x) thread

morninggloryseed said:
2C-T-7 is still my favorite member of the 2C family (that I've tried.) =D I doubt any of the 2Cs could ever take the place of 2C-T-7 in my heart. It used to be the exotic psychedelic that everyone talked about at Bluelight. Then it was made illegal in most countries. The overdosages associated with it gave it an (unfair in my view) bad name. But these were associated with taking too much, often unknown dosages, by insufflation.

The same thing happened to DOM in 1967 when pills containing 20mg (almost 7X an effective dosage) were distributed in G.G Park in San Fran. Those who got the pills were used to LSD (which hits you hard in a half hour when you take a full dosage) and many ended up dosing two or three more an hour later when they didn't feel much leading to many horrible (and long) bad trips. DOM takes a good four or five hours to peak! But I guess no one was told.

I would imagine 2C-I, 2C-C, etc are frequently mentioned because they are (sadly) way to easy for many to get a hold of. 2C-B has been (over)-rated by many as the "end all be all" of all the synthetic phenethylamines and everyone wants it because it so legendary. I'd say 2C-T-2 isn't mentioned much because it isn't very good, but that is just my personal opinion.

nice write up. thanks for the post.

to each there own though...
i personally love 2c-t-2. its my buddys fav chem. i obviously dont like it for that reason though. but he has tried jsut about every 2c chem. i want to try t-7, along with the others i orignally mentioned. but i talked to him today and he also said that 2c-b is boring. but we all react to drugs differently.

if you dont mind me askin, but what is it that you didnt like about t-2? did it just not tickle your fancy?
 
Diver777 said:
there, found it.. over at the CCLE here or full version (PDF) here

And below is a is the the DEA's notice to schedule 2C-T-2

Here is the original 2C-T-7 alert, note the section on abuse.

Killer post Diver.

You guys need to read this alert, note the DEA referencing Lycaeum and "internet self-reports"
 
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