Ma Huang (Ephedra) - Inexperienced - "Dude, you rollin'?"

[Seattle_Stranger]

This is not going to be a very detailed report because there really aren't many details to report, however I feel I should share my findings because there certainly were effects.

I obtained 3oz of dried ma huang from a local vendor. I've been looking for it for a long time, and finally found some. I would've gone for the ephedrine stacker pills, but I'm a natural guy so this sounds like a much better idea. I've been on the lookout for something natural that can be used for clean but strong stimulation. I'm not terribly experienced with amphetamines but I've dabbled. Adderall a few times, MDMA and MDA a whole bunch of times, but that's about it. I'm over the synthetics and am 100% natural now.

I tried the ma huang tea a few times here and there, usually just one cup, using a pinchful of twigs ground in a coffee grinder and steeped with a french press. The resulting tea is not bad tasting at all, and definitely produces effects. I feel a clearing/sharpening of my senses and even a noticeable sharpening of color and vision, similar to the onset of adderall. I never noticed any kind of jittery/uncomfortable energy, but certainly a level of wakefulness and even a mild giddy euphoria that reminds me of the onset of kratom.


--The report--

One day I made two rather strong cups to share with my roommate, but he ended up not drinking his share so I simply drank all of it. I have no idea what the dose was but it was relatively strong. I had no problem drinking it because I enjoy the taste and was looking forward to achieving strong effects. After getting it down, I waited for about a half hour when the expected effects began to take hold. I again noticed everything sharpen, colors and light seemed to be 'washed out' like someone turned the brightness up on the TV. Not super strong, not like mushrooms do, but definitely noticeable. I also notice a sort of pleasurable tightening in my head. I'm not noticing any kind of pushy stimulation or jolt of wakefulness, but I don't feel like laying down either. I feel like if I started running, I could run forever. I feel like I can focus and pay attention to things I want to focus on, which says a lot because usually I fall right into the typical symptoms of ADD (however I refuse to say "I have ADD"). The effects so far are reminding me of kratom but slightly different.

When I go to the bathroom, instinctively the first thing I do when i flick on the light is look at myself in the mirror and I always notice my eyes, specifically my pupils. I noticed they were DINNER PLATES. At first I thought it was simply the darkness, the flourescent light hasn't heated all the way up yet so my pupils are probably just dilating. Nope, the light got fully bright and I was still saucer-eyed. Wow!! I didn't think ephedrine would have such an effect. This scared me a little, because I understood I was experimenting with a powerful CNS stimulant and that the effective dose of ephedrine is not far off from a toxic dose. I began drinking a lot of water simply for precaution. A friend of mine must have noticed my pupils and also that I was drinking a lot of water (everyone else was drinking beer) and asked "Dude, you rollin'?"

The rest of the night went on without anything else of interest. My eyes stayed dilated for as long as I noticed and returned to normal the next morning. Towards the end of the night I had a slight headache but nothing bad. I also was able to fall asleep without any issues.

------------

So all in all, ma huang is proving to be a very useful plant. However, the fact that my pupils got so dialated to the point of where I looked like I was on MDMA sort of worries me. I don't know if this was actually the effect from neurotoxicity, and until I find out the answer I probably will not experiment with such a dosage again. Anyone have any insight on this?

Thanks for reading!!

Tagged by Xorkoth
substancecode_ephedrasinica
substancecode_ethnobotanicals
explevel_inexperienced
exptype_positive
roacode_oral

 

[Lady Codone]

Good report. I used to be an ephedra junkie back when it was sold in gas stations and whatnot. It's actually one of the better stimulants I've tried (which only includes propylhexedrine, mephedrone, methylone, MDPV, synephrine, 4-FA and 4-FMA). It definitely has its place in herbal medicine.

 

[huolesoh]

yes i have been interested in ephedrine and ma haung for a while; i must get round to trying it, i can't say i know too much about it though im afraid

it seems like a nice alternative to low quality street speed and not living in the USA makes it difficult to get pharmaceutical grade amphetamines at the drop of a hat !!

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

Good report. I used to be an ephedra junkie back when it was sold in gas stations and whatnot. It's actually one of the better stimulants I've tried (which only includes propylhexedrine, mephedrone, methylone, MDPV, synephrine, 4-FA and 4-FMA). It definitely has its place in herbal medicine.

Really? You rate ephedra up there with all those stims you listed? I don't think it's even in the same realm as mephedrone. I haven't tried any of those other ones you listed except propylhexedrine and even that felt a lot stronger than ma huang but certainly also came with that 'synthetic feel' for lack of a better description.

I'm really interested to hear if anyone thinks the fact that my pupils dilated so much is a sign of neurotoxicity.

 

[pofacedhoe]

dilated pupils has nothing to do with neurotoxicity. thats just complete nonsense

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

dilated pupils has nothing to do with neurotoxicity. thats just complete nonsense

It's a legitimate concern. Think about it, your pupils were never meant to dilate to the size of dimes in normal lighting conditions, therefore, something is going on inside your head to cause this. Also, everywhere I read, the listed symptoms of ephedrine intoxication list dilated pupils as a sign of overdosage. Granted yeah, it's pretty common for 'dilated pupils' to be listed as a symptom of too much of any drug, but still, I feel like I have a legitimate concern here seeing how nothing has ever dilated my pupils to that size except MDMA and mushrooms. Nothing organic/natural has made my pupils get that big except shrooms.

Is there any evidence to back up your claim? I want to learn, so if you have the info please share. I'm really interested to know, because the dosage I was at felt perfect for what I needed, I just want to be sure damage is not occurring.

 

[Renz Envy]

A simple blocking of receptors in the eye is all that's needed to dilate them. Ephedra is dangerous, but I'm sure if one is drinking it in tea, they will stop before overdosing. I find it's easy to find limits on stimulants between recreational and bad.

(psychosis)
(Panic attacks)
(Pounding heart)
(Throbbing headache)
(Vomitting)
(Feeling faint and needing to pass out)[Goes with panic attacks]

It's not uncommon to have all of the above happen at once. OD'ing is NOT a fun experience.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

A simple blocking of receptors in the eye is all that's needed to dilate them. Ephedra is dangerous, but I'm sure if one is drinking it in tea, they will stop before overdosing. I find it's easy to find limits on stimulants between recreational and bad.

(psychosis)
(Panic attacks)
(Pounding heart)
(Throbbing headache)
(Vomitting)
(Feeling faint and needing to pass out)[Goes with panic attacks]

It's not uncommon to have all of the above happen at once. OD'ing is NOT a fun experience.

Yes, I've 'overdosed' on propylhexadrine so I'm somewhat familiar with the symptoms of a stim overdose. It sort of went like this after using an entire benzedrex cotton steeped in water:

It hit me, I started to feel awake and euphoric, talkative, speedy, highly enjoyable for about the first hour, and then the nausea hit , then the throbbing headache, both increased more and more and more, along with a pounding heart, profuse sweating, until it hit a point of where I could only think "Holy shit I'm OD'ing" which produced a full blown panic attack. I layed on the floor in front of a box fan on full blast for a good 20ish minutes maybe longer (sure felt like hours), nearly in tears, writhing and moaning on the floor in fear for my life, cell phone already had 911 dialed waiting for me to press send when it finally subsided and things returned to normal. One of the scariest experiences of my life. All I could think about was how my friends and family would take the news. "He died by eating the entire contents of an inhaler from the drugstore." *facepalm* I have a trip report on here somewhere...

Ahh....the curiosity period....



Having said all that, the effects I've been noting from the ma huang are reminiscent of the first pleasurable hour from the propylhexadrine but not as potent. I've also experimented with adderall briefly, with doses up to about ~50mg and the effects are extremely similar, but again not as potent however far more pleasant. Adderall wasn't exactly pleasant to me, the effects felt 'intrusive' while the ma huang effects feel 'welcomed', for lack of more tech terms. Also, I feel like the effects from the ma huang, while subtle, do last nearly all day.

I'd love to hear about other people's experiences with ma huang.

 

[bunnyhentman]

I had a short-lived ma haung adventure in high school: This hippie-ish guy who worked at a coffeeshop where I'd hang out tried to convince me that I should switch from coffee to ma huang tea because it was healthier and more natural.

About 3 pots of it later, I was having a total amphetamine freak out. Heart pounding, dancing like a maniac, ranting etc. I didn't sleep for two days. My friends thought it was hilarious because I was usually the sober one. I had a huge bag of the stuff so I drank it every now and then when I wanted to skip sleep.

 

[pofacedhoe]

It's a legitimate concern. Think about it, your pupils were never meant to dilate to the size of dimes in normal lighting conditions, therefore, something is going on inside your head to cause this. Also, everywhere I read, the listed symptoms of ephedrine intoxication list dilated pupils as a sign of overdosage. Granted yeah, it's pretty common for 'dilated pupils' to be listed as a symptom of too much of any drug, but still, I feel like I have a legitimate concern here seeing how nothing has ever dilated my pupils to that size except MDMA and mushrooms.
)

maybe you did take too much but that doesn't make it neurotoxic. there are drugs out there that are neurotoxic that will not make your pupils dilate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP) and there are drugs that WILL make your pupils dilate that are not in any way neurotoxic.

drugs like mdpv, amphetamine, methamphetamine, methylphenidate, mephedrone, lsd, atropine, 2-c drugs, mescaline, mushrooms, mdma, 4fluroamphetamine, mda, 6apb, mdppp, ethcathinone, buphedrone, coca tea, cocaine, and many others can all make your pupils dilate. some are probabaly neurotoxic but thats not BECAUSE they dilate your pupils it just happens at the same time as the neurotoxicity.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

Thank you for the info!

I wasn't saying that dilated pupils is in direct relation to neurotoxicity, perhaps I should have rephrased my question. I do understand what you guys are saying though, so I'm going to assume that no damage occurred. I felt fine afterwards, not even a headache, so I think I'm good. I experimented again yesterday with a fairly strong cup w/ 5 grams of ground ma huang. Once again, the expected subtle effects showed up and hung around for the rest of the day. The funny thing I noticed is that a couple hours after ingesting the tea, I smoked some cannabis and then my pupils became very dilated. I wonder what causes this? Do you think the weed is potentiating the ephedra?

I'm starting to really fall in love with this herb. Even laying down and sleeping is pleasant while on it because you don't get pushy, jittery energy. It's more of a mental clarity, feeling able-bodied, calm and collected. It certainly has a euphoria of it's own that I can see complimenting kratom, and maybe others. What do you guys think about using kava kava with ma huang? Do you think the weak MAOI effects from kava will be dangerous to combine with ephedra? Would there be a risk of cardiotoxicity? Kava, kratom and ma huang would be sort of like a natural speedball. I think that combo, with a small amount of mushrooms would probably be a really nice experience.

One other thing to note though, that I forgot to include in the original report, this stuff constipates the HELL out of me every time. I have to force myself to piss the entire day after drinking the tea. Opiates have NOTHING on ephedrine when it comes to constipation. I've been off my ass on oxy, poppy pods, hydro, kratom, even loperamide, NONE of them block me up like this. It's bad enough for me to moderate usage just to avoid it.

 

[LogicSoDeveloped]

I don't get your whole natural vs. not natural thing. I've never understood why people look at drugs differently based on if they were produced in a lab or not.

Castor bean oil isn't synthetic and neither are deadly strains of mushrooms.

That whole argument should be thrown in the trash.

My favorite psychedelic, LSD, is known to be one of the safest drugs out there in terms of physical harm. The worst thing that can happen on LSD is a bad trip. Of course other bad things can happen if its used irresponsibly, ex: if someone drives on it. But as far as physical harm, there is none and neither is it neurotoxic.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

I don't get your whole natural vs. not natural thing. I've never understood why people look at drugs differently based on if they were produced in a lab or not.

Castor bean oil isn't synthetic and neither are deadly strains of mushrooms.

That whole argument should be thrown in the trash.

My favorite psychedelic, LSD, is known to be one of the safest drugs out there in terms of physical harm. The worst thing that can happen on LSD is a bad trip. Of course other bad things can happen if its used irresponsibly, ex: if someone drives on it. But as far as physical harm, there is none and neither is it neurotoxic.

No one ever said that one is safer than the other. It's 100% a personal preference. We all know our bodies and what works best for them. Personally my mind and body respond better to natural compounds. I can't help but notice a trend with myself and I simply listen to what my body tells me. I can list some reasons as to why I think they work better for me, but someone else can just as quickly list reasons as to why a synthetic is better. You're right, the argument is pointless. It's like trying to prove why some people like blue jeans and others prefer sweats.

If you must know, my reasons are as follows:

- I can personally grow most of my favorite things right here in my own garden.
- In many cases, the things I use often are nearly harmless to the body (kratom, homegrown mushrooms, weed)
- It's nearly impossible to 'cut' natural drugs, so you know you're getting what you paid for any there aren't any unknown/unsafe/unwanted adulterants
- Many of the natural compounds have been used by ancient cultures for centuries. Not only has there been thousands of years of research and testing, but I'm also a huge fan of experiencing other people's cultures.
- In many cases the 'natural version' of drugs (for example poppy pods vs oxycodone) comes complete with 100's of alkaloids which come together to form the 'full experience'. Often when using a synthetic drug, it certainly feels like it is just one alkaloid, and that something is missing from the experience. This is very subjective however many scientists will argue that the other alkaloids in a plant most certainly do contribute to the overall effectiveness of the herb and alter the way the main alkaloids work. Another example would be ma huang vs ephedrine hcl. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that one of the other alkaloids in ma huang actually helps protect your body from the potential toxicity and negative effects of the actual ephedrine alkaloid. Don't quote me on that one.

Like I said, it's simply personal preference. All I know is I personally get better effects and experiences while using natural compounds, whether there is science behind it or not.

Now that I actually went ahead and made the list, I know someone is going to have to come back with some kind of rebuttle on synthetics. "To each his own" could not be more of a perfect summary for the discussion.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

An interesting experiment would be a double blind study using a "natural" drug, a synthetic drug, and a placebo... Maybe an active placebo...and ask the experimentee (sp?) if they think the drug they took was natural or full synthetic.

I suspect there would be a range of responses....and no conclusions.

 

[Solipsis]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and preference, although I'm not sure I have one on this matter.

There are a few tendencies, like indeed natural products having a mix of actives while synthetics tend to have one or very few constituent(s), sometimes the actives can attenuate each other's activities which can create limits that help with the safety. Look at cannabis with the THC and CBD balance vs. synthetic cannabinoids - an example of an instance where I seriously distrust the synthetics, not only from toxicity / short history of use in humans but also simply because some are potent and relatively selective CB1 agonists which can easily make you have a freakout that doesn't get evened out by a CB2 agonist.
Rich mixes of actives in naturals can also be their problem: it can be much harder to keep track of what's going on and what they do in the body. I also think that history in indigenous tribes etc shouldn't be overrated just because it's long. Some harm may be overlooked all that time because it's not obvious or direct enough, or just accepted as a risk because the people may have very different ideas of harm and risk in life. Also some of those drug's safeties may depend on a context or particular preparation.

In short: there are tendencies but no real rules, or just a lot of exceptions to the rules. There are synthetics with unparalleled safety and ones with incredible harm potential and with naturals it can vary just as well. I fully appreciate preferring a select list of natural products that are considered safe, but it's possible to do the same with synthetics just like it's possible to completely fuck up and poison yourself with naturals and synthetics alike.

So my preference is to let go of choosing sides, because picking either side can seem a little ignorant to the full story.

If you like your naturals, IMO it's better if your reasoning is that they have the advantage of being more understood by you and thus trusted by you... not that being products of nature they are 'meant to' be consumed as part of a conscious and sustainable bio lifestyle, which doesn't make sense considering the toxic natural substances like tropane alkaloids.
So please don't overgeneralize any of this.

As for ephedra,

Maybe there are attenuating secondary alkaloids in there, but ephedrine in general is not so great for your heart and blood vessels (I don't think it's such a problem with the neurotoxicity / nervous system - that's not mephedrone's main problem either afaik). You would be better off with certain other synthetic stims over ephedra like (dex)amphetamine or methylphenidate.
Yes I tried ephedra and I also tried an analogue synephrine with a similar profile.

Also tried growing ephedra sinica, but I think I traded away my plant to a Spaniard as at the time it wasn't getting the light etc that it needed from me.. Funny little plant, reminds me of samphire.