Luck, Fate, Or God?

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pr0ficient

Bluelighter
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I haven't really had a strong belief in God at all until the other day. I have always prayed on and off, thanking and asking God for various things. During the past week terrible (F3 and F4) tornados have hit our area (Indiana, you may have heard about it on the news), specifically while I was in school. When there's a tornado warning we go and sit in the hallway at our school. I go to a catholic school so when we went out in the hallway the various religion teachers were trying to pray, and no one was listening. No one, ecspecially me, takes a tornado warning seriously. I didn't take it seriously until I saw doors swinging open in our school and the school go pitch black from the electricity getting cut off. Then I looked out a small door window to see outside. Outside cars were up on two wheels and trees were being pulled from side to side. It hit me then that this was bad. I started to pray, asking protection for our school and my family and friends. After about an hour we finally could get up. We were not able to leave school for another 2 hours though. There was no way out of the school parking lot. After we were able to leave I attempted to look around as I drove away from the school. Every single direction around the high school was horribly damaged. Most places no longer existed. Cars were flipped on road leading to the school parking lot, telephone poles were down in every direction. All of the houses that accomidated the roads we used to exit the school were damaged in some way, and many were destroyed. The school was perfectly fine. No cars were damaged, no trees were pulled from the ground, no one was hurt. Yet feet, literlly feet away from our school there was tremendous disaster. After I found out everything was okay I was comepletely shocked. I heard the tornado was 1/4 a mile long and it must of some how "parted" around our school. I prayed and thanked God very much after this. After this incident, God has answered every single one of my prayers. I haven't asked for just oblivious things (like...make me fly) or anything, but if I prayed asking God to help one of my friends out who was really in need. They wouldn't return my calls or anyones calls. I prayed that they would call me so I could talk to them. Guess who shows up at my door 5 minutes later... Many small things like that have recently happened. Every prayer has been answered, and I mean everyone. It just amazes me. I don't understand why this has never happen before. Maby I was praying wrong, maby this is fate, maby it's even luck. I'm however convienced it is God....
 
Hi man :)
Surely some other people prayed for their car, for their life, for their families etc. but did not get saved!!!
mostly Irrelevant but personal stuff:
A bit of time after I stopped believing in a God I would still pray to "him" if I knew someone that was in trouble. But I would bring with me the cheeky clause that even if what I wanted to happen did happen I would not believe in him (what I wanted always happened btw).
Now I can't even bring myself to pray when someone I know is in trouble.
Hmmm given what has happened after this (all your prayers are being fulfilled for the time being) it is probably going to be impossible to convince you that it is not God. As soon as one of your prayers is not answered then you could say it is not from the heart as much, or that you did it wrong that time.
But why do you think it is that your prayers are getting answered and not other peoples? Who now need their prayers answered more than yours?
 
I've got to side with Setarcos on this one. Whenever people try to validate their belief in god based on prayers being answered, you have to look at all the horrible things that happen despite people's prayers.

I'm sure most people caught in a tornado's path start praying those last few minutes. But we all know they are not ALL spared. I'd venture a guess even some of Catholics have died from tornados.

Or what about a family who has a child kidnapped... I'm sure the family and all their relatives and friends and many people who hear about the incident on the news all fervently pray for the child's safe return. Again, probably some Catholics, too. But, despite this, you know that not all kidnapped children are safely returned. Some are found dead. Some are never found.
I mean, if some one says, "When some one prays for good things and they happen, that proves God exists. When some one prays for good things and they don't happen, that proves God in his wisdom has an unknowable purpose that is being fulfilled by letting the bad things happen."

I wonder, too, what is special about YOU that you think you have suddenly got such a direct connection to God that you can pray to get in touch with a friend, and have them appear at your door 5 minutes later, or that God would go out of his way to save your life. Are you particularly moral compared to everyone else in the world?

Oh, and lastly, don't Christians (including Catholics) believe that you are supposed to believe in God by virtue of FAITH (i.e., belief without proof). And so doesn't that mean God won't just start granting a person's prayers because that would give that person proof of his existence and thus deny faith. At the very least, it seems to give that person (you) an unfair edge in getting into heaven. I mean, if another person prays and gets none of his prayer's answered and so abandon's the Church and you pray and get all your prayer's answered and so stay in the Church, so that when you both die you go to heaven and the other person goes to hell (or purgatory or whatever) is that fair? Didn't you have an unfair edge in life? It is sort of like being born into the correct faith--you've immediately got a much higher chance of being in that faith when you die than any person born of another faith who is required to convert to find the "right" religion. Which is what makes it so amazingly egotistical for people who think the faith THEY were born into is the one, true faith. How convenient.

Just expressing my doubts. You might want to consider the power of coincidence, or even simple goal visualization (if you focus on a certain future goal / hope / event, you might in many tiny, unconscious ways act to better bring about that goal than you would have if you'd never visualized it; thus, the act of prayer may actually increase the likelihood of the things you pray for coming about than if you had not prayed, but merely through psychology rather than spirituality...this does not work with changing the path of a tornado, but maybe for smaller things that you prayed for).

~psychoblast~
 
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I think the lord chance created the universe and everything in it and probably had something to do with your experience.
 
Well, i think its a bit of everything working. There's a bit of luck, a bit of fate, but mainly its God. I mean sure, you could focus on the negative stuff and use it to justify to yourself that god is not real. But at the end of the day, when your on your death bed, who will you pray to? God!
I think its good that you found this connection to God, and your prays are getting heard. They all get heard, but I think that intent and a good heart makes a difference, so does being receptive. I mean, you could go out into a park on a wonderful day and ask for God to show himself/itself/herself, but unless you are receptive to the beuty around you then you wont see your prayers being answered.
Anyway, this reminds me of this other situation i saw on some tv show. This foreign couple bought a home, but before they did the father did a ritual to ask the land if it wanted his family to move in on it, and also prayed for the land and for his family to be safe there. Anyway, years later a tornade or fire hit, or some other natural disaster (cant remember). And they showed a birds eye view of the after effects from a helicopter. EVETRY house for miles and miles around was completely flattened and destroyed, yet this guys house was left untouched. It was in a residential area so like houses were squeezed in very close.. it was amazing to see them all destoryed except this one house.
 
God always answers prayers. sometimes it may not me what you want, but your prayers never go unanswered. sometimes you have to wait, because its not the time. sometimes your answers no because its not in your plan.

the Bible as well as other spiritual materials speak often about the power of prayer.

i have said this before but im saying it again in case PBs post may have discouraged you. everybody is on their own path in this life and that includes the atheist. they have their own deal going on with God even though theyll deny it because they dont believe in Him. but so be it, not everyone is chosen to have experiences so they have "proof".

i have read lots of books on "experiences" of different natures. if one didnt believe they wouldnt read these books at all and thats too bad, because there are many beautiful stories.

my entire life i knew what my husbands name was going to be and where he would be from. the moment my husband and i met we knew we were meant for each other. i knew his name and where he was from before he even told me. is that a coincidence?
do i need to say again that i was saved twice from death? the first time my soul was pulled from my body and it was over and away from my flesh body and i could see myself flying through the air and the atc as if i were another person watching it all happen. i was 9 years old. do you know what kind of freaky thing that is to happen to you when you were nine? i couldnt understand what happened for years. it scared me to think about it. if there is no soul, then how was i watching myself? oh,PB , probably thinks i was hallucinating it.

the next time i was sixteen when i was saved from drowning. i saw my angels face that time. or was i just hallucinating again? btw, both times i prayed for God to help me.

why do i remember my birth and before it? i could go on and on because i have more experiences. my whole life has been one amazing discovery after another. why are some people more special? (if you call it "special") i dont know. though i think that it because you are here on this earth to get what you need to complete yourself with God. some people like PB may be here being tested because they have always rejected authority in past lives in other places, which i believe in. or maybe they are here for some other test of faith. as ive said before, i dont see any certain qualities in myself that would redeem me as special enough to have had these experiences. but i do see my children as extraordinary so i consider myself to be the vessel for them.i feel my life being saved and me knowing who i should marry was given to me because i had to produce my children.

you should always pray that you have Gods light shown to you and that your path is made plain and clear for you and that youll have no problem understanding it and using the information you have been given. dont ever let someone elses lack of faith or belief take away from what you already know. and you do already know. the more you trust God and follow your soul the more He will open Himself up to you. if you dont trust Him and keep faith in Him He will pull back from you. always keep your faith and grow towards Him.

im glad Hes answering your prayers the way you want Him to, but remember to keep the faith when His plans are different from your own too.
 
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But if God's plans are his plans, what is the point of asking God for anything? If it was part of his plan that the tornado not hit a particular school, then no prayer was necessary. If it was part of his plan that the tornado SHOULD hit that school, then his answer to any prayer to spare the school would be "no."
I mean, to say God answers prayers but sometimes his answer is "no" seems to invalidate the entire concept of prayer.
And why should you have to pray to God to show you his light? Aren't the very people doing this praying necessarily the ones who don't NEED to be shown his light? What sense does it make for God to prove himself only to those who already believe? Isn't that exactly backwards from what makes sense?
Oh, and an OBE does not prove God exists (if indeed you had one). This could be a natural phenomenon that we will better understand one day.
~psychoblast~
 
Maybe an OBE proves it, maybe it doesn't - maybe its relative to the individual experiencing it - maybe it cannot be proven, maybe it doesn't need to be, only experienced as true - the proof is in the pudding!

what would it take to be proven to you is what I wonder? - an old guy with a long white beard parting the clouds with a thunderous voice telling you to be good or he won't send santa to your house anymore?

I don't feel it lies in classical images of such, as such -
but as Void said, the openess of receptivity makes a difference, whether you've made any definitive judgement as yet or not - that does not matter, as proved by hardened skeptics like yourself reversing their views after certain events of an individually relative & personal nature.

but, you are referring to God as him, what I would like to know is why?

do you have any specific concept of God yourself? - is the Judeo-Christian one the one you always reference? - you are an atheist correct?

I realize that it is most likely only out of the context of the dogma from which you are arguing against - Christianity, i.e. - our lord, our father on so on an so forth - but why such a being-like, gender inducing reference? - and I open this to anyone willing to attempt to tackle it

is it merely out of your inherent enviromentally programmed paradigm? - your just so used to saying it you no longer even realize it?

this was always something I took issue with when speaking of the divine nature of things

Maybe, PB, God is also a natural phenomenon that will also be better understood on a grand scale one day...hmmm...
to address the original post - I, like void, feel it to be all three wrapped up in one -

I think one of the more significant things Jesus taught, since this, in a way, is dealing with Christianity - is that God works *through* you - in effect, God is not some old man sitting on a cloud watching over heaven, but more, a process of divinitive action which occurs for whatever (maybe specific) reasons it so chooses to, whenever, however, through one, or, possibly a group of whomever - that may reach the specific 'dialtone' for the hotline to it, metaphorically speaking that is.

this is reaching now at eastern thought - prayer is only a slightly different incarnation of meditation - the 'dialtone' is a state of mind - of being - so -
maybe, its just you!

PB, no need to wonder what is so special about HIM - he is special, just as you are, just as I am, and that guy over there, and beanergrl, and that tree, that rock by the river and the grass I was just standing on outside a minute ago, and....etc...etc...
none any more special than the other, but only with the gained ability to access it -

I say, forget the blind notion (power ~laf) of coincidence, welcome to the wonderful world of synchronicity!
remain aware, however it is you may - sharpen it - expand it - synochronicities abound - those sleeping & blind call them coincidence, when you attain it, there is nothing coincidental about it!

I ask only one thing - how were you *feeling* when it happened - when they continued to occur - did it give you goosebumps - make you shiver, like lightning running up your spine? - I'm just curious.

Oh, and PB - so far as we know, only humans, through their minds bother to waste time and effort trying to make sense out of anything - the quicker you realize nothing really ever has to make any sense - the better off you'll be IMHO

Love & Light
Peace, Balance & Harmony
 
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Now that you have felt God's hand in your life, don't let it fade. Go to church, continue to pray, read the bible, go to bible study (my favorite), etc. Your connection with God will get deeper and deeper. That is how you will know, because you will feel his presence every day. But, don't rely on answered prayers to believe, because you don't know what God's plan is for your life. Instead, pray for God's will in your life.
.....insearchofpeace
 
PB, i say pray for "Gods light", because you can get lots of light. but you want to be clear on understanding it. not all light is good.Gods light is . and prayer is not just about asking for things. its about thanking Him. and my form of prayer which is meditating on God, may not be how someone else prays. to say that an answer of "no" defeats the purpose of prayer is really just missing the point.
maybe "special" isnt the right word, because i, too, believe that each of us are special to God. what i mean is everyone is here filling a different purpose. for some the need to be enlightened has been shut on them because they shut it out. for some, like me, perhaps a divine intervention was needed to keep me on my path for my purpose.
i dont believe that things like tornados are put here by God as part of His plan, but i believe that he can intervene.
LAO TZU- when i refer to God in a masculine sense its not because i believe that He is actully a sex. i believe that our souls have no sex and i know some Bible verses that mention that also. i say "He" because He is my Father. He refers to Himself as the Father in heaven and He calls eve (women) Mother of the earth.
[ 25 September 2002: Message edited by: beanergrl ]
 
If everyone is special, then no one is special. The concept of specialness needs contrast in order to have meaning. Just more spiritual gobbledegook talk that makes no sense when considered in the light of reason.
Beaner:
You think your purpose from God is to have special kids. Well, funny thing is you are half-right. You are an animal who has evolved with incredibly strong drives to survive, procreate and protect your young. It is not surprising you have constructed spiritual beliefs that are exactly consistent with these drives.
Lao Tzu:
I mix up how I refer to god. It used to be my policy to use lower cases and the pronoun "it." But lately I sometimes use capitals, in which case I am likely to use the masculine pronoun because I am male. I read an author once who said, in these cases where you have a choice between pronouns, it would seem that if the writers use their own gender to determine the pronoun then both masculine and feminine will be used about equally, and there will be a rule behind it. I thought that made sense to me.
Oh, and I do not restrict myself to looking at god as the judeo-christian, father-figure, type of concept. Except that where a post seems to invite that, I may accept that in my response. Such as here, when we seem to be dealing with the Catholic version of God in the original post. And beanergrl's posts, as she seems to have a Christian view of it. However, you will find that I myself am one of the most common agitators for being clear about what form of diety or higher power is intended when people use the word "god."
~psychoblast~
 
everyone is special in different ways. i should of said God loves us all likea good father would his children.
and this is really just another thing well debate about in circles as we always do, both of us knowing that the other one of us is wrong and in for an awakening someday. so im bowing out now, because i dont feel like a debate.
 
Oh, and right now I think the world can be made a better, happier place if people stop worrying about an afterlife or a diety of any sort and focus on how they are living their natural lives. Atheism is one way to accomplish this, but simple religious apathy might serve as well.
However, I think my view is idealistic, based in part on my age. As I get older, and there is less time to change the world, and more and more of my efforts fall on deaf ears, it is reasonable to assume I will eventually accept that no significant inroads can be made into religious belief.
At that point, the determination as to what will bring me the most happiness, atheism or religion, may change and I may decide to embrace religion or spirituality. It really will not be that difficult, my prior experience with brainwashing has taught me how easy it is to suspend disbelief and rationality and thereby feel a sense of enlightenment whether or not any true enlightenment has occured.
Anyway, I am hedonistic enough (not believing in an afterlife) to embrace the lie of spirituality one day, when I've lost hope that my example of atheism and reason makes any difference or provides an example anyone else might follow. But, when I do, it will not be because I have discovered the "truth."
It will be because I recognize that happiness is more valuable than the truth. While I think the world could be happier if people abandoned their "faith" [fucked up concept], I admit that in a world where people put such a fucked up emphasis on this fucked up concept, an individual will likely find more happiness joining the mob than standing separate.
So, anyway, I will continue to scream at the mob for now, though I expect I will eventually tire of this and elect to join it. "Ignorance is bliss."
~psychoblast~
 
i believe that my job in this world is to change it into a better place, and i know that my children will do something signifigant someday. i believe that its from my love and understanding of God that makes me want to do these things.from my heart. and by being this way i feel i am serving Him. and if i am serving him then there is no need to worry about the afterlife, so see,even being on different sides we still come to the conclusion we need to make a difference.
as far as truth goes. i think you are always getting truth and you never fully have it all. you get what you need.
 
I agree with you both about the world becoming a 'better' place - whatever that truly is, as it is reasonable to say there will be differences in our subjective views of it, but, I think it also reasonable to say that many things would most likely be similar, in common between us all.
PB, I also agree with your notion of people focusing on living their natural lives, and, as you suggest, I feel all roads can, do & should lead there
the roads are many, the way is one -
you may not believe this after having read some of my posts PB, but I was an atheist - in the eyes of most Christians (most everyone for that matter), I still am - I renounced organized religion, and what I felt they were and had turned 'God' and its experience into on whole, as I began the search for truth on my own - and to help make a looooong story to some degree short - as beanergrl said in her own way - thus far, I have found truth in everything, no matter how small the shread of it was, it was, and is there - some things show you vast planes of it stretching in front of you, some you must dig for - some is very well hidden - all for their own reason - but, and this is where I think you may lose it - I resorted to science, logic, reason and rational thinking - common sense - I looked for what felt right to me - I go by feeling, nothing else, there is nothing else....
...but this is a tale for my own topic here, just know PB, I feel being skeptical is good to a point, even necessary - it keeps you from that brainwashing you're so adamantly trying to avoid - in the process, just don't brainwash yourself by it!
as for being special, and needing contrast - every perceived 'seperate' entity in itself is the contrast - for everything is unique unto itself - it is special, in its own special ways - and however close, no two things are exactly alike!
Love & Light
Peace, Balance & Harmony
[ 26 September 2002: Message edited by: LAO TZU ]
 
I dont have much to add to this discussion, but I must say one thing..
You guys are some real scholars.
I mean it, psychoblast, every paragraph from you brings up good points about what I believe in / don't believe in. Same for beanergrl..I would love to sit and bullshit with either of you for hours..
What I think about this story (topic):
I think god works in mysterious ways.
I believe that there had to have been a reason for the tornado missing the school, maybe it was gods plan.
For everyone who prayed for safety and no damage and had it happen anyways, there's probably a family who prayed and nothing happened to them. Maybe a non-believer witnessed the strength of such a natural disaster and realized how fragile our lives really are, and decided it was time to trust in the lord because death can come at any time.
I don't know, it's just my opinoin.. :)
 
Ah well this is a very complicated topic. I understand psychoblasts objection to faith, but I dont think its down to God. I feel that a persons search for God, and relationship with God should be a personal thing. But people often associate God with the church, and that can cause problems. Even though the church can have a positive effect on your life, as well as a negative effect, I dont think the church will connect you to God. It can provide you with tools of meditation, but there are many other tools outside of the church that work just as well. And the social/political mentality the church puts you in can cause serious problems, and seriously stuff things up like psychoblasts says.
But beyond all that God does exist. Although I do not think he sees the world as we do, and his "plan" is not constantly in effect. I think he stands back and just lets us be, and grow, however we want. If we reach out for help to him then he is there. But if not then he doesn't interfere. It is a chaotic world and a lot of bad things happen, but when something bad happens it is because of us and not God. People are destroying the earth, and this leads to more natural disasters so when they happen its our fault yet people rarely take responsibility for it. They rather blame god, or say God doesn't exist.
 
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