Lysergamides [LSD Subthread] SSRI Interactions

[Hitoshi]

Jesusgreen-- thanks for the suggestion. I tried to clarify this question and posted it in ADD.
Experts definitely needed. It's a pretty esoteric question. Because what I'm looking for is the neurochemistry/pharmacology that might support this hypothesis: Both SSRIs and LSD have primary effect on serotonin. My hypothesis is that during withdrawal of the SSRI, serotonin levels are randomly fluctuating as the native system tries to take over serotonin transport on its own (the SSRI having overridden the system for a number of years)--it takes time for the receptors to regain equilibrium so the system is in flux. In what way might this situation be similar to taking LSD?
Both LSD and the withdrawal of SSRIs can cause visuals like phosphenes. Since both drugs primarily effect serotonin, there's an obvious connection. What I'm trying to find out is if anyone with a lot more neurochemistry backgound than i have can suggest any biochemical explanation for why SSRI withdrawal can in some ways mimic LSD.

 

[Clovergirl]

This paper, page 304 should have information you are seeking.
http://www.maps.org/research/cluster/psilo-lsd/cns-neuroscience+therapeutics_2008-passie.pdf

The pharmacology of LSD. This page discusses the interaction between it and numerous other drugs in response to intensity of high being affected

 

[oceanwave]

LSD dosing and SSRIs

Hello,

Yesterday I did LSD for the first time, 1 tab. I felt some fun effects but nothing crazy. I am on ssris.
I have found many mixed answers on this forum in regards to LSD and ssri, whether or not its safe and how much it blunts the effects.

My conclusion is that it should be safe (cant cause seratonin syndrome) and that it works a little less. Is this correct?

Also, tmmr I am going to a music festival and I planned on dropping again... Will this work if I take more? Should I take 2 or 3 tabs? Will this overcome any tolerance of doing my first hit two days earlier (which I did to test it out before the festival)

 

[TangerinO]

Hello,

Yesterday I did LSD for the first time, 1 tab. I felt some fun effects but nothing crazy. I am on ssris.
I have found many mixed answers on this forum in regards to LSD and ssri, whether or not its safe and how much it blunts the effects.

My conclusion is that it should be safe (cant cause seratonin syndrome) and that it works a little less. Is this correct?

Also, tmmr I am going to a music festival and I planned on dropping again... Will this work if I take more? Should I take 2 or 3 tabs? Will this overcome any tolerance of doing my first hit two days earlier (which I did to test it out before the festival)

I wouldn't recommend doing it for at least a fortnight, and that's without the SSRI's. Also 2 or 3 tabs could well prove overwhelming at a festival, 3 tabs is practically a different drug compared to eating a single tab because of the exponential dose curve.

Someone with knowledge on the SSRI thing want to step in?

 

[sekio]

If LSD interacts in such a way that it interferes with metabolism of the SSRI, it could cause some nastiness. That's drug dependent though.
LSD should not interact with SSRIs in such a way that it causes serotonin syndrome, but the effects are liable to be seriously blunted because of chronic serotonin receptor downregulation, perhaps requiring 2 or 3 times as much as someone not on SSRIs. Of course, this should always be verified by starting small and gradually increasing the dose, waiting a week or so in between doses. Otherwise you may end up regretting it.
It is also wise to consider why the individual is on SSRI's in the first place. Some people who hare prone to depression, anxiety etc may not particularly enjoy 8-14 hour gruelling introspective psychedelic experiences.

It is probably wise to do one tab if you are going out. LSD tolerance can drop pretty quickly, the rule of thumb I have is 3 days between trips for good effects (~80% ) and 2 weeks for full effects.
If you have never done psychedelics at a rave/festival before, don't do acid your first time unless you really, really like it. Doing drugs in public can be a very different experience than doing them in a controlled setting. Just be like a good Boy Scout and Be Prepared if you choose to dose.

 

[Disconnect]

^^ Can you give some specific examples of SSRI's whose metabolism is adversely effected by LSD and some that aren't?
And is it really 2 or 3 times less effective? I ask as I have been pressed by someone who is on SSRI's to trip with them (their first psychedelic experience).

On topic. Taking 3 tabs on your 2nd time tripping seems reckless to me. Taking 3 tabs at a festival for you 2nd trip seems like a recipe for disaster. You can always dose higher next time. But considering you're on an SSRI and you have a tolerance, maybe it won't be too hectic, but why risk it?
If you want to take 3 tabs at once, I would wait 2 weeks, stay in a controlled environment, wack on a blindfold and some headphones for the first few hours, take a walk outside later on. Oh and have a ready supply of marijuana and someone relatively sober about.

 

[oceanwave]

If it interacted with my ssri in a negative way, would I have felt sick ? Because I felt great during an the next day. I will not take 3 . I will take one or maybe 2. I don't plan on doing this for a long time after this festival. It was my mistake to take it so soon before though. Any other advice? And thank you by the way

 

[oceanwave]

I just wanted to update on what happened, I ended up taking 2 and a half and It was about equal or maybe even less intense than the first time. I feel like the tolerance, as you said, made it too soon to be effective. It was disappointing overall.

If I want to wait awhile and try this again in the future, do you think I could have a stronger experience if I take a higher dose? Can a higher dose overcome the blunting effects of ssri or is it pointless to try is basically what I want to know

 

[pofacedhoe]

ssri's for me blocked mdma and the effect of mushrooms/mescaline.

not worth wasting your drugs when your on them. coming off the ssri to do a hallucinogen is a bad idea as ssri withdrawl is very real and unpleasant

 

[Splitz]

Yep, it's a shame. SSRIs are not only complete nasty garbage (ime of course, but many others' too), but they completely ruin the fun of a lot of my favourite drugs.

What pofacedhoe says is very true. LSD is well worth trying, but your best bet is to wait until a time you're not on SSRIs, naturally, once you've been tapered off them properly for whatever reason. If they're helping you, it wouldn't be wise to stop in any case.

If that time comes, give it a good couple of weeks for the SSRIs to leave your system, I think I'm right in saying they have a well long half-life.

 

[Solipsis]

Please be advised that there is a currently active thread on this running in ADD here, although the premise is a little different pharmacology and interactions are still discussed:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/651672-Serotonin-and-LSD

Also there should be more threads on this in PD, I'll try to merge them for you and report back here.

edit: just mega-merged them and I'll merge this one in as well.

I'd like to get a nice bit of info to put in the OP for future reference, since there are a lot more people bound to ask this question.

I think this is interesting:

SSRI's can end trips if the increased synaptic serotonin is enough to outcompete the psychedelic bound to the 5-HT2a receptor. Obviously this is going to be a less effective strategy the more potent your psychedelic is. This is also partially why people on SSRI's find LSD and other psychedelics less effective (more serotonin in the synapse for LSD to compete with), although receptor downregulation/desensitization could also play a role.

Also as a nice sum up I think it can be said that results vary widely and caution must be taken not to just take a large dose of acid, assuming the results will be dampened. Not every SSRI is created equal and anecdotal evidence suggests sometimes there is little or no reduction in effects and still a big potential for extreme states such as ego death.

Another point is that there are no guarantees that the quality of the trip will be a comfortable one by that I mean no different from the LSD alone... apparently some people don't take the interaction so well and there can be consequences to experienced mood or mental clarity that may be further magnified by the psychedelia.

Finally, be aware that taking LSD is fundamentally destabilizing to your mind or at least it has a fair potential for it (even if there is also potential for beneficial effects if there is proper reintegration and restabilization), so if you are taking SSRI - assuming this is for a reason - tripping may not be the smartest thing for you to do.

So the good news seems to be that there is no reason to suspect physical harm from the combination, but the warnings must be given that there is an element of unpredictability when it comes to intensity and possible non-descript mental effects on top of the psychedelic ones. There may be some data out there on the difference in result between specific SSRI's when combined with LSD, but I highly doubt this has been mapped.

How's that for putting something in the OP? Kindly help as I'm sure there are people who are more knowledgeable on this subject than I am who can formulate some elegantly worded advice. Thnx.

 

[cj187]

bump