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Lysergamides [LSD Subthread] Spiritual Experiences / Plus Four / ++++

  • Thread starter Thread starter B9
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That scale is bullshit. THe SHulgin scale is not specific to psychedelics...it can be used to evaluate the activity of any type of substance...stimulant, deprssant, or narcotic. To have this chart, which lists psychedelic activity, is not true to what Shulgin wrote.

college_dropout said:
I've personally found this scale, which elaborates a bit on the Shulgin rating system to be a bit more helpful...



http://www.thegooddrugsguide.com/lsd/psychedelic.htm
Click to expand...
 
^ Ok MGS on your scale much of the trip say 2 - 3 hours of it at least (?) who knows ? was at a +3 the +4 was made up of two experiences within that time frame!:)
The latter one still persists.=D In fact maybe they were one and the same just different aspects of it ! :)
 
I'm confused now. F&B, I'd imagine a +4 on valium is nt likely either, but then I am sure it is possible. Many people do not regard MDMA as a psychedelic, but it can certainly produce a +4. I've had some opiate experiences that could be said to have shades of +4 moments, but certainly not to the extent that a psychedelic can produce.
 
exactly, some classes of drugs can reach mystical states easier than others but the shulgin scale was devised to be used with any psychoactive substance. Also I am unsure if shulgin intended a +4 on non psychedlic drugs to mean some other form of intoxication besides a mystical realization.

The MDMA example is key. Opiates, especially morphine based compounds have a repuatation for producing these states on occasion. I have never personally reached a ++++ from ethanol but even that has been revelatory in the past. I do agree that the shulgin scale is probably best reserved for psychedlics and empathogens but technically you can be liberal with it.
 
Last monday night was definately a ++++. Wow, I dont even know what happened. I lost my mind for 4 hours and honestly didnt think id ever get it back.

I did though!.....somewhat.

If there is a level above ++++ I am sure I reached it at some point that night. I wish I remembered it all enought to write a report on it.
 
I think a +4 is just a glimpse of non-dual consciousness (kensho). It is usually not a permanent realization. But it does open your eyes to the naked reality stripped of ego identification.
 
morninggloryseed said:
That scale is bullshit. THe SHulgin scale is not specific to psychedelics...it can be used to evaluate the activity of any type of substance...stimulant, deprssant, or narcotic. To have this chart, which lists psychedelic activity, is not true to what Shulgin wrote.
Click to expand...
I know it's not freakin specific to psychedelics. We've been through this before. And I believe this chart was created based on the Shulgin scale but wanted to elaborate to those who had never experienced a psychedelic trip what each level is like. It gives a better summary of what's involved with a psychedelic trip than anything else I've come across on the net.
 
dbailey11 said:
I think a +4 is just a glimpse of non-dual consciousness (kensho). It is usually not a permanent realization. But it does open your eyes to the naked reality stripped of ego identification.
Click to expand...

shite, in that case i am living in a ++++ - help!!!

p.s. just having a chillum w/ me, myself and i, we got to thinkin - now is that also a state of noncartesian nonduality as in triality?
 
nanobrain said:
shite, in that case i am living in a ++++ - help!!!

p.s. just having a chillum w/ me, myself and i, we got to thinkin - now is that also a state of noncartesian nonduality as in triality?
Click to expand...


I don't know, but you probably have an answer to that, huh?
 
college_dropout said:
I've personally found this scale, which elaborates a bit on the Shulgin rating system to be a bit more helpful...



http://www.thegooddrugsguide.com/lsd/psychedelic.htm
Click to expand...

I, too, think this scale is bollocks.

The major problem I have with this scale is that it is too specific to "classic" psychedelics, i.e. LSD, mescaline, psilocybin.

It's describing specific effects as if that's what the scale is supposed to represent - which it isn't. I've had +2 and +3 experiences where there were none of the visual effects described. For some drugs, some of the effects will manifest at higher or lower dosages than described. How would 5-Meo-DMT, MDMA, ketamine, 2C-B-FLY, 5-Meo-DALT and dozens of others fit into that scale as described...? They wouldn't.
 
Last edited:
nanobrain said:
shite, in that case i am living in a ++++ - help!!!

p.s. just having a chillum w/ me, myself and i, we got to thinkin - now is that also a state of noncartesian nonduality as in triality?
Click to expand...

No of course not - it's thesis, antithesis -> synthesis. We that is I, you and your chillum be getting dialectical, dude.

;)
 
college_dropout said:
I know it's not freakin specific to psychedelics. We've been through this before. And I believe this chart was created based on the Shulgin scale but wanted to elaborate to those who had never experienced a psychedelic trip what each level is like. It gives a better summary of what's involved with a psychedelic trip than anything else I've come across on the net.
Click to expand...

I don't want to repeat what was just said above...but psychedelics are not just about visuals. The scale primarily focuses on visuals, and as a result it sounds more as though it were evaluating the strength of a kaleidoscope someone was looking at. Not a mind-expanding drug.

It gives a terrible 'summary' of a psychedelic trip because it only focuses on a tiny aspect of the experience. Beyond that, the experience of having trip is so variable from user to user (and substance to substance).

That is the beauty of the Shulgin scale, it is not locked into a tiny slice of the greater experience, and thus is useful to everyone. How would a blind person use that worthless scale?

I don't base the potency of my trip just on the visuals....some psychedelics don't even produce visuals. Dumb scale. Garbage. Stop using it! :)
 
Can I just ask what is being said here?

I always thought that:

+1 = knowing that one had ingested a psychoactive agent - that one had 'come up' - the very first notion that the chemical had effect, before:

+2 = the stage where you are definitely 'up' but can still decide whether to go with it or stay 'straight', until:

+3 = you have no choice but to face the fact that you're 'up' and will be until it starts to drop off.

The +4 stage is one I have always considered to be separate from the fact of whether one had ingested a psychoactive chemical or not - it was a state of transcendence - an Epiphany, wherein the whole of the Self disappears and a moment of Unison achieved - it is a state interdependent of the use of chemicals, whereas the fisrt three are completely dependent on such use.

Or haven't I a clue as to what we're discussing?:\
 
morninggloryseed said:
I don't want to repeat what was just said above...but psychedelics are not just about visuals. The scale primarily focuses on visuals, and as a result it sounds more as though it were evaluating the strength of a kaleidoscope someone was looking at. Not a mind-expanding drug.

It gives a terrible 'summary' of a psychedelic trip because it only focuses on a tiny aspect of the experience. Beyond that, the experience of having trip is so variable from user to user (and substance to substance).

That is the beauty of the Shulgin scale, it is not locked into a tiny slice of the greater experience, and thus is useful to everyone. How would a blind person use that worthless scale?

I don't base the potency of my trip just on the visuals....some psychedelics don't even produce visuals. Dumb scale. Garbage. Stop using it! :)
Click to expand...
Fine MG, since you know a lot more about psychedelics than I I'm going to set aside my pride and concede that it must be a worthless scale. So I will stop using it.




.....But I'm still hotter than you :p =D ;)
 
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