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lsd = schizophrenia

I think it's because the psychedelic state is more similar to psychosis than being drunk! The effects of PCP and chronic amphetamine also parallel in some ways the experience of psychosis. And yeah, of course the brain imaging doesn't tell the whole story, it won't tell you what kind of psychedelic experience the person is having just as it wouldn't tell you how someone with acute schizophrenia is experiencing that. It does suggest that the brain is working in such a way to make such an experience possible, without saying anything about the character of the experience.

I finally got around to reading LSD psychotherapy and think this is relevant:
Grof said:
...Jost came to the conclusion that it is possible to find a certain culmination point in the natural course of psychosis beyond which the disease shows a trend towards spontaneous remission. In schizophrenia, these culmination points are usually characterized by hallucinatory experiences of death or destruction, disintegration of the body, regression and transmutation. These negative sequences are then followed by fantasies or experiences of rebirth.
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Does that sound more like being drunk, or ego death on a high dose psychedelic?
 
Why do you think being on LSD is more similar to psychosis than being drunk tho skillet? I think most people are far more likely to be psychotically violent when drunk.

I'm not sure how seriously to take Grof - it was done a pretty long time ago and he talks a lot of crap. Nice guy tho - apparantly his wife banned him from taking LSD so he had to do his "psychotherapy" with his "carbon dioxide" therapy shit where you breathe fast until you feel dizzy.
 
Nah, schizophrenia rates have remained constant for the last 100 years. If psychedelic use was triggering it in people you'd expect to see a big spike in the statistics over the last 50 years of mass psychedelic use.
 
Ismene said:
Nah, schizophrenia rates have remained constant for the last 100 years. If psychedelic use was triggering it in people you'd expect to see a big spike in the statistics over the last 50 years of mass psychedelic use.
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But psychedelics could trigger schizophrenia earlier than would otherwise happen, and figures for overall incidence would remain unchanged, if they do not record age of onset.
 
Wouldn't you see an enormous spike in the onset of schizophrenia in the younger age group tho? Similarly with cannabis - that's "alleged" to trigger schizophrenia too but there's no getting round the fact that schizophrenia rates were the same 100 years ago.
 
Ismene, it's just that there seem to be many similarities between experiences of schizophrenia and those of psychedelic induced ego death. I think many of the delusions and hallucinations could be interpreted as a defence against this, sort of a spontaneous mystical experience gone wrong. Of course, it could well be that I'm trying to make sense of something in terms I'm familiar with and that this is complete bollocks, anyway...

It seems that speed is the key to the least painful ego death, and most positive spontaneous mystical experiences seem to come on extremely rapidly. Maybe in the case of schizophrenia it's far more protracted which gives a much greater chance of panic and resistance/avoidance, combined with the fact that there is no real support structure in place to potentially allow for a more positive outcome.

That quote from Grof references a german paper on the clinical use of LSD in psychiatry (that's available on erowid http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?A=ShowDocPartFrame&ID=4282&DocPartID=4085). So it is potentially biased - I'd much rather read that conclusion from someone unfamiliar with the effects of LSD.

Another (maybe small) piece of evidence linking psychedelics and schizophrenia is that both cause similar deficits in pre-pulse inhibition of startle (a small noise/other stimulus causes desensitisation to a shortly following louder noise/larger stimulus).

I read about the holotropic breathwork(TM) :) I guess that's what you're referring to? Could never find any real guide for how to do it, other than you should go to an approved centre and singing or some sort of vocalising is involved, as well as the breathing. I'm not much of one for groups and really don't want to sing in my apartment! I did try the breathing though, fast and slow and got nowhere.
 
this is an old forum guys but i think i might be in risk to have schizophrenia my uncle was and eversince i started taking drugs... i got really stressed for becoming it.... im 15 i never really experienced delusions or so but i did hear stuff when i was high like in the bath whit the loise noize i though i could hear someone getting in my house either my mom or whatever but the bath was covering it... and on shrooms i was talking to myself.... i did many psychadelic tell me if i just get paranoia if my english is bad its cause im canadian french sorry.... if u have any tips or know anyway to know if im schizo... tell me
 
skillet said:
Have you ever been psychotic to compare with tripping?
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Yup. Non-drug related psychosis many years ago (and come close a few times on massive stim binges since) and many years of tripping on a wide variety of drugs since. No similarity whatsoever, for me at least. Can't speak for others though. Only psyche that maybe comes close is chronic ketamine abuse maybe. Even then it only bears some similarities - more than "traditional" psyches though, for sure. But still a very different animal. Acute psychotic breaks from heavy drug use (stims being the most likely cause) definitely exist. But they are brief and fade soon after the drug wears off - mental illness can last a lifetime and is chronically debilitating rather than just losing the plot from overdoing it for a while. Very different things.

Also, the talk of ego-death relating to mental illness is even further from the mark - couldn't be more different if it were an orange staring at the sun whilst jumping out of a window flapping it's pithy wings.

PS: As for heavy use of stims + psyches for extended periods, that does send you pretty nutzo. But again, it wears off once you come down, get some sleep and nourishment and take it easy for a few days.
 
Schizophrenics are theorized to have imbalances in dopamine (D2 receptors), not serotonin, as was previously posted.
 
LSD can bring to the surface any mental instability that one may have dormant.

but I think it goes without saying that were all a little unstable, what is the universe anyways?
 
I would like to bring a little something to this thread that, from what I saw, nobody has: Schizophrenia.

I was diagnosed as a Paranoid Schizophrenic when I was 12 and it got clearly worse from there. By 14 I was on anti-psychotics and was told by my doctors that if I ever stopped taking them I would not be able to function and would be hospitalized, I very much believed them considering what it was like during a Schizophrenic episode. Though now I see just how wrong they were, considering I no longer take medications and function very well in society (thanks to psychedelics, in my opinion)

My Schizophrenia causes auditory and visual hallucinations. I hear and see things that do not exist, sometimes I can logically deduce what is real and what is not (if I'm in a building I'm obviously not going to hear an ice cream truck close to me). However, if there is no obvious signs that what I am seeing or hearing is not real, I have no way of telling what is real and what is not.

I've taken LSD many many times (after development of Schizophrenia) and I can say it does not compare to Schizophrenia in any way, shape, or form. Think of Schizophrenia as more of a deliriant, such as Diphenhydramine, as opposed to a typical psychedelic, like LSD.

So to sum up, when LSD makes me see a friend who I name trouble bubble, or puts me on the side of the road in nothing but my underwear with a toilet brush and a trashcan claiming I'm sweeping the kitchen (true stories); I will gladly come back and take back the things I've just said.

Hope I've made clear some things, and brought something that people will deem as useful to this conversation.

Cybion
 
I think it's a nearly outdated notion that LSD STRONGLY resembles schizophrenia and if it does at all it's mostly due to the limitations in termonoly to describe the overall experiences in life, hallucinations from one substance or to ones experience in psychosis or in dreaming are all vastly different states
 
Yeah it's absolute bollocks. About as accurate as saying you are "legally insane" after 3 hits of acid.
 
Ismene said:
Yeah it's absolute bollocks. About as accurate as saying you are "legally insane" after 3 hits of acid.
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I can only take my hat off to you Amuricurns, with your ideas of legally this and legally that.

Total logical nonsense from our European perspective. If you're legally insane, then it follows there must be an "illegally insane". Wonder what that is ;)
 
So if excessive Dopamine in the brain is linked to schizophrenia/psychosis, would taking a dopamine releasing substance like MDMA, reduce the symptoms of schizophrenia?
 
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Big Sky,
I'm not sure the complete answer to your question, though I can tell you that substances such as LSD and MDMA used moderately have reduced the symptoms in my case, I don't know why and I wont claim to know.
I can tell you also that when smoking cigarettes, Schizophrenics (myself included) have major issues with their Schizophrenia, likely due to the nicotine affecting dopamine. This is why I don't smoke.
 
My grandma on my mom's side was Schizophrenic. Im not 100% sure how it effects each generation.

I used to use ALOT of LSD,MDMA. I havent used MDMA in over 6 months, and LSD in over 4 months. I smoke marijuana everyday, as i am a medical patient.

Its just always in the back of my mind that i could turn out like her. Scary but i love the LSD,MDMA experience.
 
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