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lsd = schizophrenia

Positron emission tomography and fluorodeoxyglucose studies of metabolic hyperfrontality and psychopathology in the psilocybin model of psychosis.
Vollenweider FX, Leenders KL, Scharfetter C, Maguire P, Stadelmann O, Angst J.

Research Department, Psychiatric University Hospital of Zürich, Switzerland.
Abstract
The effects of the indolehallucinogen psilocybin, a mixed 5-HT2 and 5-HT1 agonist, on regional cerebral glucose metabolism were investigated in 10 healthy volunteers with PET and [F-18]-fluorodeoxyglucose (FDG) prior to and following a 15- or 20-mg dose of psilocybin. Psychotomimetic doses of psilocybin were found to produce a global increase in cerebral metabolic rate of glucose (CMRglu) with significant and most marked increases in the frontomedial and frontolateral cortex (24.3% ), anterior cingulate (24.9% ), and temporomedial cortex (25.3% ). Somewhat smaller increases of CMRglu were found in the basal ganglia (18.5% ), and the smallest increases were found in the sensorimotor (14.7% ) and occipital cortex (14.4% ). The increases of CMRglu in the prefrontal cortex, anterior cingulate, temporomedial cortex, and putamen correlated positively with psychotic symptom formation, in particular with hallucinatory ego disintegration. The present data suggest that excessive 5-HT2 receptor activation results in a hyperfrontal metablic pattern that parallels comparable metabolic findings associated with acute psychotic episodes in chronic schizophrenics and contrasts with the hypofrontality in chronic schizophrenic patients.
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The article is free if anyone's interested. They note that people are generally aware that the effects are due to the drug, unlike schizophrenics, and that the two conditions result in similar changes in some measures of ego pathology, while other measures are more severly effected in schizophrenics.
 
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The psilocybin model of psychosis?? I think there's a problem in medical professionals who have never tripped writing articles about pscychedelics. The only way you know it's not anything remotely like psychosis is by taking the drug yourself.
 
It's a scientific journal, you can't just call it 'Tripping and psychosis' or something! And he doesn't say it's the same, just that similar increases in metabolism occur in certain brain areas, and similar changes in perception of self.

I have no idea, but it's possible the guy has tripped. Most of his research is about this sort of thing, he must have got the interest from somewhere. But you have to be very careful how you put things when you publish professional articles.

Have you ever been psychotic to compare with tripping?
 
^The 5ht2 "activation" could be a result of excessive dopamine, which is seen as trademark of psychosis.

I certainly don't think that the psychedelic/psychosis theory is without merit; there are definite connections.
 
It seems to be from 5-HT2A mediated release of glutamate from cortical pyramidal neurons.

Yeah, the trouble is drugs are fairly blunt tools and could probably never reproduce a 'brain state' that's come about by the influence of so many different factors. So we have the serotonergic model of psychosis, PCP model, amphetamine model... Nobody's claiming any of them reproduce the experience of psychosis precisely, or even very well.
 
Ismene said:
Tripping on LSD is nothing like suffering from schizophrenia. It's as fucking stupid to say they are as saying being asleep is the same as being dead.

Anyone on LSD is aware they've taken a drug - that's a fundamental and enormous difference to someone suffering from a real mental illness.
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I don't like that statement at all. When I took a larger dose of LSD, I must've forgotten at least 100 (yes 100+) times that I had eaten some acid. Dose plays a gigantic role.
 
willow11 said:
I certainly don't think that the psychedelic/psychosis theory is without merit; there are definite connections.
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I don't see any similarities between psychosis and psychedelics. If you came to me when I'd had a big dose of LSD and needed something doing that required me to be in a sober frame of mind I think I'd be a lot more helpful than I would if I'd had 20 pints of lager. I certainly wouldn't be so psychotic as to be unable to help.

I think most experienced trippers would be more useful than someone who had drank 20 pints of lager.
 
rollingstoned! said:
I don't like that statement at all. When I took a larger dose of LSD, I must've forgotten at least 100 (yes 100+) times that I had eaten some acid. Dose plays a gigantic role.
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You're unusual then. I think it's pretty standard that people who've taken psychedelics understand that they've taken a drug.

I've taken some pretty gigantic psychedelic doses and in every case I've been completely aware that I had taken a drug and was now experiencing it's effects.
 
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^ I agree. Psychedelics definitely don't hamper my basic understanding of what's going on in physical reality.


Maybe there are some vague similarities between psychosis and extremely intense psychedelic states, but it's a really terrible comparison to make, especially when you're giving it to a psychedelically-ignorant audience. Which is why I was pissed off when my psychology class was introduced to "hallucinogens" by this very comparison.

The psychedelic state is marked by evolution of consciousness, not loss of contact with reality.
 
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Ismene said:
You're unusual then. I think it's pretty standard that people who've taken psychedelics understand that they've taken a drug.

I've taken some pretty gigantic psychedelic doses and in every case I've been completely aware that I had taken a drug and was now experiencing it's effects.
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I don't really understand your point with this, of course people who just took a psychedelic know they took a psychedelic and that that's what is causing the effects. Trying to compare it to schizophrenia, where the change occurs so gradually and without such a specific trigger is meaningless. Take amphetamine psychosis as another example, I think most people don't realise they're gradually becoming delusional, and there's no clear cause for them to suspect it. Sure they're taking amphetamine, but they've been doing that for the last few weeks or more.

Going back to the paper I mentioned, the increase in metabolic rate in the frontal cortex is similar to that seen in the acute phase of schizophrenia only. Schizophrenics in the chronic phase show a decrease in metabolic rate. Acute phase symptoms don't sound completely different from tripping to me.

This is an interesting topic, it would be great to hear from anyone who has experienced both. There must be a lot of people who've tripped and later developed schizophrenia.
 
Ismene said:
I don't see any similarities between psychosis and psychedelics. If you came to me when I'd had a big dose of LSD and needed something doing that required me to be in a sober frame of mind I think I'd be a lot more helpful than I would if I'd had 20 pints of lager. I certainly wouldn't be so psychotic as to be unable to help.

I think most experienced trippers would be more useful than someone who had drank 20 pints of lager.
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Thats an invalid point really; no-on is talking about being drunk. Alcohol defintely has more crippling effects, physically and mentally, but there's very little point in comparing being drunk to being on hallucinogens.

I would ask- whats a high dose of acid for you? My highest dose had me lose touch with reality at an absolute fundamental level; mind you, this was 5mg, and to be expected. Above 600ug I am very incapacitated.

I don't really think that psychedelics mimic psychosis at all, but there are indeed similarities, mainly in tangential thought process, delusions, hyper-suggestibilty, a greater tendency towards anxiety/panic/euphoria, sensory hallucinations and the intensifying of most sensory input. Plus we do have the basic fact that some 5HT2a antagonists can sometime nullify the effects of both psychedelics and psychosis. The connection is vague, but present.

It would, however, be facetious to say that the two mental-states are the same, just as it would be absurd to say that all psychotic states are the same.
 
I don't really understand your point with this, of course people who just took a psychedelic know they took a psychedelic and that that's what is causing the effects. Trying to compare it to schizophrenia, where the change occurs so gradually and without such a specific trigger is meaningless.

The point is that knowing that you're high on a drug is a pretty fundamental difference to being psychotic. The two arn't comparable.
 
willow11 said:
Thats an invalid point really; no-on is talking about being drunk. Alcohol defintely has more crippling effects, physically and mentally, but there's very little point in comparing being drunk to being on hallucinogens.
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The point I was making is that no-one calls being drunk being "psychotic". They call it being drunk. So why would anyone call being high on LSD "psychotic"? It's not psychosis, it's being high on LSD.

I would ask- whats a high dose of acid for you?

It depends on how my tolerance is, but in the past when I was on 500 mics of LSD and two blotters of DOM I could go for a walk and have a sensible conversation with someone who was sober.
 
The point I was making is that no-one calls being drunk being "psychotic". They call it being drunk. So why would anyone call being high on LSD "psychotic"? It's not psychosis, it's being high on LSD.
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No-ones saying that being on LSD is the same as being psychotic. Just that there are possible similarities.
 
I don't really think that psychedelics mimic psychosis at all, but there are indeed similarities, mainly in tangential thought process, delusions, hyper-suggestibilty, a greater tendency towards anxiety/panic/euphoria, sensory hallucinations and the intensifying of most sensory input. Plus we do have the basic fact that some 5HT2a antagonists can sometime nullify the effects of both psychedelics and psychosis. The connection is vague, but present.

I think that's a pretty one-sided way of looking at the psychedelic experience. You could just as easily list the ways in which the psychedelic experience isn't like being psychotic eg

Feelings of peace and tranquility
Increased reasoning ability
Appreciation of music
Appreciation of nature
Love and empathy for others, understanding of their problems
Feelings of health and wellbeing
Being able to explore your deepest and most complex emotions
Emotional catharsis
Appreciation of sex
Afterglow of happiness, help with feelings of depression, grief, positive effect on many other mental problems.

As far as I'm aware being psychotic hasn't got that much in the way of benefits while the psychedelic experience has benefits that are truly staggering.
 
You're right, but the benefits of psychedelics are only potential benefits, and highly dependant on the circumstances. With the wrong circumstances the effects can be the complete opposite of those you listed. It is, of course, relatively easy to provide yourself with an environment conducive to tripping for 12h or so and maximise the chances you will experience those positive effects.

If we assume* that the onset of schizophrenia has similar effects to psychedelic drugs, it's no wonder the experiences are so negative. For a start there's no comfort to be gained from the knowledge that you took a drug that's causing these effects and that will wear off soon. And a positive set/setting would be, unless you live in the woods maybe, impossible to maintain for an extended period of time (weeks, months maybe). So circumstances ensure a downward spiral into confusion, isolation and eventually full-blown psychosis.

* The brain imaging study gives pretty strong evidence that the two states are similar, to an extent, though they cannot be the same because they arise by different mechanisms - selective 5-HT2A antagonists are pretty much ineffective as antipsychotics. Though I'm not sure if anyone has tried them on acute phase schizophrenics.
 
But you don't need psychedelics to become anxious or depressed do you. Alcohol will do that. Being sober will do that. I'm still trying to figure out why it's somehow more acceptable to lable the psychedelic state as similar to psychosis while being drunk isn't. Is it because alcohol is a more familiar drug?

And I'm not sure brain-imaging tells the whole story. Perhaps the brain image of a psychotic foaming at the mouth halfway through butchering a prostitute with a rusty screwdriver would show similar features to a guy on psychedelics at complete peace of mind in nature. Does that mean the two states of mind are similar?
 
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